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[WIR] Cults of the Blood Gods

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  • #31
    Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post


    No no, they were always the Cainite Heresy in the modern nights, but what we changed on Paradox's request was some of the more Sabbat nomenclature, such as titles within the church. This is why our Church of Caine has a more Orthodox Christian hierarchy than a Catholic one.
    Thanks for the correction! I am glad to know the truth!


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Taggie View Post


      Well it 100% fails at showing anything from the Sabbat at all, Touchstones and Convictions cannot, in anyway, mimic paths, they fail utterly at it, and the Cults don't...well achieve very little, they are crippled by Loresheets into branding with minimal impact.
      Bluntly, you are going to have an issue with my review then because every Blood Cult that lists the tenets of their beliefs are going to get extensive write-ups of how this works well as a substitute for the Paths of Enlightenment and how I'm going to praise it for broadening the Humanity system to include alternate modes of morality. So strap yourself in because that's going to be a thing in this book where I discuss the similarities of Blood Cults and Paths while showing my disdain for the old Heirarchy of Sins over-and-over-and-over again.

      Nevertheless, I do think this is a good time to mention some House Rules I've been fiddling with for:

      House Rules: How to modify V5 Humanity Rules in CT Phipps' game

      * Humanity is not a measure of how good you are. It is a measure of how far you are in control of your Beast.
      * The only things that bring low Humanity automatically are diablerie and the Embrace. You need to be a Sabbat to not have that happen.
      * Touchstones can be vampires, humans, objects, and places.
      * You can be without a Touchstone as they do not relate to Convictions in my rules.
      * Touchstones ground you to Humanity and help you recover from Stains.
      * Convictions should be at least three things and broad ideas. You get at least three of them in your starting character unrelated to your Touchstones. You may buy more with EXP. The Chronicle also has a Chronicle Tenet that is added to them.
      * Convictions help you recover from Willpower even as going against them gives you Stains.

      I may do a complete book about this once I hammer out the details for V5.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
        Bluntly, you are going to have an issue with my review then because every Blood Cult that lists the tenets of their beliefs are going to get extensive write-ups of how this works well as a substitute for the Paths of Enlightenment and how I'm going to praise it for broadening the Humanity system to include alternate modes of morality. So strap yourself in because that's going to be a thing in this book where I discuss the similarities of Blood Cults and Paths while showing my disdain for the old Heirarchy of Sins over-and-over-and-over again.
        I'm sincerely curious to see it, as I actually agree and want to see your take on it.

        The Paths are an important element in the setting, yes. The Sabbat book had to give rules on them, yes. But this is not the Sabbat book and not the book to present Paths anyway, the Conviction system is an improvement over the old Hierarchy of Sins (the HoS was bashed by fans relentlessly for more than 20 years) and I can't see what's even the point in saying "they are crippled by Loresheet". Like, what is the problem with the Loresheet rule?


        #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
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        • #34
          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          I'm sincerely curious to see it, as I actually agree and want to see your take on it.

          The Paths are an important element in the setting, yes. The Sabbat book had to give rules on them, yes. But this is not the Sabbat book and not the book to present Paths anyway, the Conviction system is an improvement over the old Hierarchy of Sins (the HoS was bashed by fans relentlessly for more than 20 years) and I can't see what's even the point in saying "they are crippled by Loresheet". Like, what is the problem with the Loresheet rule?
          I'm definitely going to get into the ideas behind Mithras and The Church of Set among others that provide different ways of using the V5 Humanity System for very alien, inhuman belief systems.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #35
            Protect the Flock

            Type: Fiction

            Synopsis: Some vampires captured by the Second Inquisition get "rescued."

            Analysis: The Second Inquisition is a kind of threat that works best in terms of being vaguely undefined. Its one of the most controversial parts of V5 because everyone has a different idea of how important humans should be in the setting. For some fans, they should ever be capable of killing all vampires in the world to justify the Masquerade and an existential threat to Kindred. The reason there is a Masquerade. For other fans, the idea of humans being able to threaten Kindred and not be corralled ruins the premise of the game or is simply ridiculous in itself. That's not even getting into the idea of how dangerous or powerful the Second Inquisition should be.

            The thing is that neither group is wrong and the Second Inquisition should be whatever you think it should be for your setting. That isn't always going to work and I find the SI destroying the Mausoleum and Vienna Chantry ridiculous. However, I think that the London purge was something possible and that plenty of Kindred would assist the Hunters by siccing them on their enemies or feeding them information. God knows, my PCs immediately try this despite it being horrific treason against their own kind.

            (My PCs: "HAHAHAHAH *snort* Yeah, because we care about that)

            CT Phipps House Rules for the Second Inquisition: In my games, the Second Inquisition consists of roughly 5,000 permanent members spread around the world that have about 20K people that know a "little" enough to not question why something needs to be blown up, a house needs to burned down, or a guy seems immune to bullets. These include members of other Hunter groups working with other Hunters.The reason the SI hasn't been destroyed is that your average SWAT team member or Special Forces guy is as likely to believe he's hunting aliens or fighting against genetically engineered super-soldiers from the future. "No, that guy has nano-healing! Straight from DARPA."

            My Second Inquisition also uniformly stacks the deck for their encounters and if someone attacks a vampire at night, it is because they are wannabes or guys impersonating the SI from a vampire's influence. The SI burns down havens during the day, uses car combs, and sniper rifles. They can never threaten Methuselah save through a drone strike and only got lucky with some Elders but are a persistent threat to Ancilla and Neonates. In other words, they are dangerous because they are NOT stupid and do their very best to never voluntarily approach a vampire where they could be endangered, identified, killed, or subverted.
            This version illustrates that if the SI *does* capture any Kindred that I think that will be the end of the Masquerade for most people because I think of the average Fledgling not having any Garou-esque or even Sabbat-esque loyalty to theri kind. They will spill the beans about the Camarilla, Anarchs, Clans, Caine, Gehenna, and Thin Bloods if they can. They may not know MUCH but they certainly know a little. I also don't think most vampires would hold out on ratting out their fellow Kindred if they know any local hot spots or other vampires. So my view is most Inquisitors are extremely well-informed if they are a "in the know" Hunter versus a pawn they're using.

            This all ties to this story because it shows some wannabe Golconda-types and "innocent" vampires dealing with the Inquisition treating them like monsters. They're actually very dangerous and killed people but that was because the SI antagonized them so it doesn't feel too saccharine. We also find out their cult leader who said she'd "heal" them was lying.
            Last edited by CTPhipps; 10-11-2021, 02:51 AM.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              I'm sincerely curious to see it, as I actually agree and want to see your take on it.

              The Paths are an important element in the setting, yes. The Sabbat book had to give rules on them, yes. But this is not the Sabbat book and not the book to present Paths anyway, the Conviction system is an improvement over the old Hierarchy of Sins (the HoS was bashed by fans relentlessly for more than 20 years) and I can't see what's even the point in saying "they are crippled by Loresheet". Like, what is the problem with the Loresheet rule?
              Disagree on the Convictions (as presented) vs HoS, but that's a minority so w/e. As to Loresheets: ok say your a Giovanni or Samedi, now you are a Hecata, whether you were involved in the reunion or not, and can pay experience to add downsides to you character to have some of the old bloodline flavor but you can never actually be the bloodline, or your a Lilith cultist, you now have the inverse of your old cult and can pay xp to have some little hints of what was, but you can't buy all of it, you have to pick one or two things of what was a complete package.

              Loresheets feel like a way to scream stay in your preselected lane.

              The Cults fail to be inhuman because they are tied to humans via touchstones, even Shelim is tied to a human, meaning it can never be inhuman
              Last edited by Taggie; 10-11-2021, 03:34 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                The Cults fail to be inhuman because they are tied to humans via touchstones, even Shelim is tied to a human, meaning it can never be inhuman
                Consider your point made.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #38
                  as a side I tend to downplay clan heceta unity. Mostly the bloodlines/clans in question consider themselves their original clan and the clan name is there to save face . The main de facto aspects of the clan are a series of non-aggression pacts and acknowledgement of the capuchin as clan head. For example while their it's unlikely a Cappadocian elder would pro actively attempt to harm a giovanni neonate it is highly unlikely they'd get any support from them etiher.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
                    as a side I tend to downplay clan heceta unity. Mostly the bloodlines/clans in question consider themselves their original clan and the clan name is there to save face . The main de facto aspects of the clan are a series of non-aggression pacts and acknowledgement of the capuchin as clan head. For example while their it's unlikely a Cappadocian elder would pro actively attempt to harm a giovanni neonate it is highly unlikely they'd get any support from them etiher.
                    My general inclination is that the Harbingers proved to be more reasonable about their revenge than anyone expected due to their (brief) association with the Sabbat. They wanted to kill Augustus Giovanni and everyone involved in their personal genocide.

                    Which proved to be easier than expected because the Giovanni have never been a particularly large or powerful clan.

                    They've given everyone else a "join us or die" offer and most of the younger family members have signed up willingly. Meet the new boss, slightly less incestuous than the old boss.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                      Loresheets feel like a way to scream stay in your preselected lane.
                      I think that's less a problem with the Loresheets and more with other aspects of the game, like making the Hecata mechanically unified in the first place. I don't think it is a terrific mechanic by itself, but seems pretty fine. It just exists in the middle of other decisions.

                      Touchstones I think it is unanimous that they're a bad rule as is? I mean, anyone, anyone at all, disagree? But again, this isn't a problem of this book and I doubt they could add new rules for them. They're part of the more tightly controlled decisions of Paradox.


                      #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
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                      • #41
                        The Hecata is a sect and about as unified as any other sect. They are blood related, but that binds them closer just as much as it pushes them apart.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Jonny View Post
                          They are blood related
                          They're not and that's the main reason so many people hate them.

                          Cappadocians and Giovanni are blood related, but have different weaknesses and discipline spreads. Samedi are unknown. Nagaraja have nothing to do with those lines. They all had different spreads and weaknesses. Now the're all mechanically the same. Why? Was there a reason other than butchering the setting with a non-sense simplification to reduce page count?

                          On the sect aspects few people are that angry. It's not a bad development, really, even if not to everyone's taste.


                          #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
                          #AutismPride
                          She/her pronouns

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Jonny View Post
                            The Hecata is a sect and about as unified as any other sect. They are blood related, but that binds them closer just as much as it pushes them apart.
                            They are not, as others have pointed out, actually all blood related. But they are all death focused, in that for all of the Hecata members death seems to be an "end" rather than a "means." Which is part of the reason the other clans give them the stink-eyes, which means the Hecata band together. How long that lasts remains to be seen.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                              I think that's less a problem with the Loresheets and more with other aspects of the game, like making the Hecata mechanically unified in the first place. I don't think it is a terrific mechanic by itself, but seems pretty fine. It just exists in the middle of other decisions.

                              Touchstones I think it is unanimous that they're a bad rule as is? I mean, anyone, anyone at all, disagree? But again, this isn't a problem of this book and I doubt they could add new rules for them. They're part of the more tightly controlled decisions of Paradox.
                              I think of them as a great concept but badly implemented. I love the idea that vampires who maintain a human tie are less likely to go crazy and kill people. It'd make a great 5pt Merit in previous editions or maybe a Background.

                              Originally posted by Jonny View Post
                              The Hecata is a sect and about as unified as any other sect. They are blood related, but that binds them closer just as much as it pushes them apart.
                              Frankly, I see no reason to have the magic Reunion. Maybe if they made all Bloodlines "offshoots" it would make sense but this seems like an attempt to clean up extra content.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #45
                                Well ,when I say "all" I should have said "often" and when I said blood related I was talking about them being literal family. They even call the Hecata a Family of Clans.
                                As for the Nagaraja they are different and the book even says as such. They weren't called to the Reunion, they just turned up randomly seeking refuge and the rest just shrugged and said since they are also necromancers, why not?

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