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  • Combining Clans to get back to 7

    So, this is a crazy idea, but it might be kinda fun. Also, it’s different from the pro vs con V5 debates we often get here.

    I was thinking it might be interesting to reverse the proliferation of Clans that we got in V:tM after 1st edition. Back when there were still 7 Clans. So I decided to combine the Clans and major bloodlines in V:tM into 7. Sounds kinda like Requiem right? Well, that isn’t my intention, since those Clans are broad archetypes and these are more specific sets of culture, tradition, organization, etc.



    Anyway, first I’ll start with how the Clans combine and the Disciplines the new Clans get. I decided to go with 4 Disciplines per Clan instead of 3, to capture important powers or themes from the component Clans. I tried to aim for each standard Discipline to appear about 3 times.

    Toreador+Malkavian: Auspex, Celerity, Obfuscate, Presence
    Tzimisce+Giovanni+Gangrel: Animalism, Fortitude, Potence, Protean
    Ventrue+Salubri: Auspex, Dominate, Fortitude, Presence
    Tremere+Cappadocian: Auspex, Dominate, Fortitude, Necromancy
    Lasombra+Baali+Setites: Dominate, Obfuscate, Obtenebration, Potence
    Nosferatu+Assamites: Animalism, Celerity, Obfuscate, Potence
    Brujah+Ravnos: Animalism, Celerity, Potence, Presence


    Now for a more detailed (yet still brief) description of these composite Clans:

    Malkavian (Toreador/Malkavian)
    The Malkavian Clan are a Clan of passionate artists and visionaries. They pursue new passions, new ideas, new ways to create art and beauty. The are also plagued by obsessive behavior and even madness, perusing their endeavors with such zeal that they destroy themselves and those around them. Beyond mere art and creativity, the Malkavians are known for their supernatural insights, such as the ability to catch glimpses of the future.
    Disciplines: Auspex, Celerity, Obfuscate, Presence
    Weakness: the Malkavian each have a single permanent derangement, though this malady almost always relates to an obsession with some form of art, hedonistic pleasure, or creative pursuit.

    Basarab (Tzimisce/Giovanni/Gangrel)
    The Basarab Clan still hold to the ancient ways when they were feudal lords who ruled openly over peasants and whose wealth was measured in acres and not numbers of a bank account. The Basarab are like dominant predators, their domain is their’s alone and all within must submit or die. For millennia their progenitor Clan was served by Revenant ghoul families, until at last one great family and its vampiric master usurped the Clan and they became the Basarab. A large percentage of this Clan are drawn from other such families created by the Basarab or their precursors: Bratovitch, Zantosa, Rossellini, Obertus, Dunsirn, and so on. They also make frequent use of ghoul servants, both human and animal. With the decline of feudal power, some Basarab vampires have been able to transition to modern life and live deep in the wilderness away from town or city.
    Disciplines: Animalism, Fortitude, Potence, Protean
    Weakness: As the Gangrel weakness, though each time they DON’T sleep within their native soul they also gain an animal feature.

    Valere (Ventrue/Salubri)
    The Valere are nobles among the kindred, though not just rulers, they are philosopher kings who see it as their duty to bring peace to their undead race and to limit the worst exploitation’s of others of their kind. The Valere seek to lead vampires, not merely for the sake of power, but to guide them to a better path, to protect humans from vampiric oppression and predation, and even to seek out a way to personally reach Golconda and guide other vampires there as well.
    Disciplines: Auspex, Dominate, Fortitude, Presence
    Weakness: As the Ventrue, they must select a certain type of blood. Though they may drink others kinds of blood, they must drink 2 blood points to gain 1 point of nourishment. Furthermore, the Valere are loath to drink the blood of non-consenting humans, and may not do so unless they spend a point of Willpower, which allows them to drink their blood for a scene.

    Tremere (Tremere/Cappadocian)
    Much like the Tremere of canon, these were a group of magic users who used a ritual to grant themselves immortality: becoming vampires. Though these were necromancers whose powers over death and undeath allowed them to become vampires. Instead of gargoyle servants, they use zombies and spirits against their enemies.
    Disciplines: Auspex, Dominate, Fortitude, Necromancy
    Weakness: As the Cappadocian weakness, they are pale and lifeless, unable to use blush of life.

    Azaneali (Lasombra/Baali/Setites)
    The Azaneali are the black priests of the kindred. They serve demonic entities of darkness and the abyss, sometimes in the form of Satan or Set, sometimes something more Cthonic in form. The Azaneali believe in embracing what they see as their true vampiric nature: creatures of darkness, of evil. From a more secular prospective, they believe that might makes right, they mercy only fosters weakness, and even those Azaneali who don’t openly venerate dark gods embrace a Darwinian attitude that can justify terrible acts. The Azaneali believe that it is the right of the strong to rule and seek positions of power over human and vampire alike, using such power to guide others towards darkness.
    Disciplines: Dominate, Obtenebration, Obfuscate, Potence

    Orlok (Nosferatu/Assamites)
    Like the Nosferatu of canon, these vampires were cursed with terrible ugliness. Though in addition to becoming masterful spies from being forced to hide from kindred and kind alike, but also became assassins without peer. Being isolated from other vampires allows them to be rather more cold blooded in slaying their kin, and the tight knit unity of the Clan allows them to spread information about who needs their serves as spies or assassins. Some Nosferatu believe that their curse will be lifted if all other vampires are eradicated, and so seek to destroy other vampires, though most spy or kill for more tangible rewards.
    Disciplines: Animalism, Celerity, Obfuscate, Potence
    Weakness: as the Nosferatu weakness

    Ravnos (Ravnos/Brujah)
    The Ravnos Clan are a Clan that seeks personal liberty and freedoms. Often they are nomadic, traveling from place to place, breaking laws of kindred or kind as is convenient. Those who prefer to stay in a certain region or city will invariably seek to oppose authority figures, oppressive laws, or other restrictions them. While there are a fair number of Ravnos in the Camarilla, they frequently support Anarchs or (for older wiser members of the Clan) seek to work within the system to undermine authority or even rising to power by promising “power to the people.” The Ravnos are over-represented among itinerant groups - like bikers, Romani, shepherds, and the like - though this is hardly universal.
    Disciplines: Animalism, Celerity, Potence, Presence
    Weakness: the Ravnos are compelled to travel. Staying in one location for too long causes them to become more short tempered and irritable until the Beast rises to the surface and becomes uncontrollable. Each day after the first spent in the same location raises the difficulty to resist frenzy by 1. This continues to increase until they spend a week away from that location.


    Anyway, those are some of my crazy ideas. Any thoughts?
    Last edited by Sergeant Brother; 09-24-2021, 11:12 PM.

  • #2
    cool but Isnt this what requiem effectively is?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
      cool but Isnt this what requiem effectively is?
      Well, kind of. Though I think its different in at least one important regard. The Clans I have are more like groups that have their own history, structure, organization, relations with allied or rival Clans. Requiem Clans are more like archetypes, a set of powers and weaknesses, and the organization comes from belonging to the Carhians, Invictus, etc.

      So, yes, there are similarities, but differences as well. I suppose the above Clans could be compared to Requiem bloodlines since they have 4 Disciplines.

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      • #4
        Personally I've considered fusing the Tremere and the Nosferatu, making them basically the D&D Hag clan.

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        • #5
          Requiem clans do have hierarchies. Or at least can. Some are more organized than others. World of Darkness: Chicago gave the local Ventrue a very centralized hierarchy called "the Structure" whose name I've actually stolen/repurposed for the Ventrue clan's organization in my Masquerade games. The interplay there between clan and covenant positions was interesting, as the city's Ventrue prince was top dog among the Invictus but merely considered "a liaison" to the Invictus by his fellow Ventrue, and implied to only have a middling place in the clan hierarchy.

          The late 1e clanbooks, which were basically 2e books with the serial numbers filed off, expanded the five clans and gave them tons of history, culture, and depth beyond the five archetypes. At the same time, GMs could use as much or as little of that as they wanted, and could limit history/culture/depth to the covenants if they preferred clans to play a lesser role. Requiem has always been great at the toolbox approach.


          There are some neat ideas and marriages of concepts here, but I agree you're reinventing the wheel if you're wanting to winnow down the number of clans in the game. I'd probably just use the Requiem clans with bloodlines to cover some of the more "exotic" or niche clan concepts like Salubri and Giovanni.


          Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
            Personally I've considered fusing the Tremere and the Nosferatu, making them basically the D&D Hag clan.
            Ooh, that would be pretty cool. Now I have to rearrange everything

            Maybe Animalism, Auspex, Obfuscate, Thaumaturgy?

            Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
            Requiem clans do have hierarchies. Or at least can. Some are more organized than others. World of Darkness: Chicago gave the local Ventrue a very centralized hierarchy called "the Structure" whose name I've actually stolen/repurposed for the Ventrue clan's organization in my Masquerade games. The interplay there between clan and covenant positions was interesting, as the city's Ventrue prince was top dog among the Invictus but merely considered "a liaison" to the Invictus by his fellow Ventrue, and implied to only have a middling place in the clan hierarchy.

            The late 1e clanbooks, which were basically 2e books with the serial numbers filed off, expanded the five clans and gave them tons of history, culture, and depth beyond the five archetypes. At the same time, GMs could use as much or as little of that as they wanted, and could limit history/culture/depth to the covenants if they preferred clans to play a lesser role. Requiem has always been great at the toolbox approach.


            There are some neat ideas and marriages of concepts here, but I agree you're reinventing the wheel if you're wanting to winnow down the number of clans in the game. I'd probably just use the Requiem clans with bloodlines to cover some of the more "exotic" or niche clan concepts like Salubri and Giovanni.
            I haven't read any of the Requiem Clan books, so I'm not that familiar with what they did with Requiem after the first few books.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
              Ooh, that would be pretty cool. Now I have to rearrange everything

              Maybe Animalism, Auspex, Obfuscate, Thaumaturgy?
              A D&D Hag clan is a cool idea, but so is your injection of a bit of Assamite into the Nosferatu. Sneaking Celerity into their in-clan disciplines is a brilliant move, because super-speed is one of the most noticeable vampiric powers that Count Orlok has in Murnau's Nosferatu. Your Nosferatu-Assamite blend feels wonderfully archetypal to me.

              The Basarab are another top-notch mixture. Very Requiem-esque -- isn't Dracula a Gangrel in Requiem? -- but that's hardly a bad thing.

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              • #8
                Another thing that I like is that you've clearly made an effort to spread out the disciplines between the clans in a balanced sort of way. What often happens when fans or even published writers rearrange the clans is that they assign disciplines purely based on clan concepts and end up favoring one or two disciplines noticeably over the others. Here, however, you have 11 disciplines, seven of which are shared among three clans. That's pretty great.

                What I would do is bite the bullet and remove the remaining unique disciplines. What little Obtenebration has to offer can be safely folded into Obfuscate (something that I think V5 should have done instead of the clunky Obtenebration-Necromancy hybrid the edition went with). Protean is such a classic that it ought to be shared among at least two clans, but I'm not sure which of the others apart from the Basarab would be a good fit.

                Combining the clans into a smaller set is a fun exercise, at any rate.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've tried to do this multiple times. Here is my take

                  Toreador/Brujah - Punks and artistes that are closest to mortals.
                  Malkavian - Just like they are in VtM
                  Ventrue/Lasombra - Lasombra are basically just a darker shade of Ventrue already
                  Gangrel/Tzimisce/Setite/Ravnos - Animalistic and noble - Think Dark Ages Tzimisce rather than Sabbat Tzimisce. The Setites and Ravnos are part of this clan but act more as bloodlines.
                  Tremere/Cappadocian/Giovanni - Giovanni slew Cappadocius but were unable to get rid of the entire clan. They adopted the Tremere into their clan after the diablerie of Saulot.
                  Assamite - Just like they are in VtM
                  Nosferatu - Just like they are in VtM

                  My main problem with this is the Gangrel/Tzimisce/Setite/Ravnos clusterfuck. Gangrel can be combined with any of the three other clans but it's hard to combine Ravnos with Tzimisce or Tzimisce with Setites
















                  English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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                  • #10
                    Oh damn, I actually really like that Basarab Clan idea actually.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'd just use the original 7 Camarilla clans. They provide the most diversity and can easily include any kind of concept that would fit into the Sabbat and Independent clans.

                      The independent clans are essentially gimmick clans designed to fit a very specific role. They've been subsequently developed to be more than that, but only by covering territory already covered by others. The Sabbat clans have stronger concepts, but are essentially just darker archetypes of those found in the Camarilla. To a large degree unfortunately, all the non-Cam clans were essentially defined by their unique signature Discipline, and the official game has slowly realized that over the years and tried to fix that in various ways.

                      Really the only Camarilla clan that would need to change would be Tremere since they are so lore specific and dependent on a strict hierarchy. Opening them up to be an older and more open clan would solve that, so presumably using elements of the Salubri and Cappadocians could work.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                        Really the only Camarilla clan that would need to change would be Tremere since they are so lore specific and dependent on a strict hierarchy. Opening them up to be an older and more open clan would solve that, so presumably using elements of the Salubri and Cappadocians could work.
                        To me the best change in this sense would be to use the Tzimisce Kolduns with elements of the Cappadocians and Salubri. Auspex and Thamaturgy (maybe with the option to change it to a "bloodline gimmick" to use the other disciplines as schools of magic), I'd get Animalism instead of Fortitude or Dominate, personally. To me the ability of talking with the creatures of the Earth and commanding them have more of the feeling of "magic".


                        #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
                        #AutismPride
                        She/her pronouns

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
                          Another thing that I like is that you've clearly made an effort to spread out the disciplines between the clans in a balanced sort of way. What often happens when fans or even published writers rearrange the clans is that they assign disciplines purely based on clan concepts and end up favoring one or two disciplines noticeably over the others. Here, however, you have 11 disciplines, seven of which are shared among three clans. That's pretty great.

                          What I would do is bite the bullet and remove the remaining unique disciplines. What little Obtenebration has to offer can be safely folded into Obfuscate (something that I think V5 should have done instead of the clunky Obtenebration-Necromancy hybrid the edition went with). Protean is such a classic that it ought to be shared among at least two clans, but I'm not sure which of the others apart from the Basarab would be a good fit.

                          Combining the clans into a smaller set is a fun exercise, at any rate.
                          I thought about eliminating special Disciplines and I did to some degree. I felt torn about it because some of those Disciplines are iconic and others are gimmicky. Protean is iconic. Maybe Obtenebration could be Obfuscate, though they seem different in many ways. I felt really tempted to give my Brujah/Ravnos combo Chimerstry to emulate the Lost Boys and their illusion powers. I felt a little constrained by having to combine Clans, include all of the canon Clans, balance out Disciplines, and so on. I could potentially have just created entirely new Clans that fulfilled the rolled I wanted, but I also wanted to include all of the old Clans, since it seems interesting.

                          I think that having Tzimisce and Gangrel (along with other Clans) as 2 separate Clans, where both could have Protean, would be cool. Protean becomes a special Discipline because the two Clans that might have it were combined. The above arrangement is just one of many that I tried, some have two different Clans with Protean.

                          I think that the Nosferatu and Assamites fit together pretty seemlessly. In fact, the Nosferatu have always had great potential as assassins, so it’s not that big of a stretch.

                          Originally posted by Cadmiumcadamium View Post
                          I've tried to do this multiple times. Here is my take

                          Toreador/Brujah - Punks and artistes that are closest to mortals.
                          Malkavian - Just like they are in VtM
                          Ventrue/Lasombra - Lasombra are basically just a darker shade of Ventrue already
                          Gangrel/Tzimisce/Setite/Ravnos - Animalistic and noble - Think Dark Ages Tzimisce rather than Sabbat Tzimisce. The Setites and Ravnos are part of this clan but act more as bloodlines.
                          Tremere/Cappadocian/Giovanni - Giovanni slew Cappadocius but were unable to get rid of the entire clan. They adopted the Tremere into their clan after the diablerie of Saulot.
                          Assamite - Just like they are in VtM
                          Nosferatu - Just like they are in VtM

                          My main problem with this is the Gangrel/Tzimisce/Setite/Ravnos clusterfuck. Gangrel can be combined with any of the three other clans but it's hard to combine Ravnos with Tzimisce or Tzimisce with Setites
                          Cool. You actually included several of the the things I did in different versions I tried and I still feel conflicted about what combinations are best. Ventrue/Lasombra and Toreador/Brujah were both some of the combos I used most in some of my models.​

                          Originally posted by Jonny View Post
                          Oh damn, I actually really like that Basarab Clan idea actually.
                          Thanks! I think it’s a cool idea as well.

                          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                          I'd just use the original 7 Camarilla clans. They provide the most diversity and can easily include any kind of concept that would fit into the Sabbat and Independent clans.

                          The independent clans are essentially gimmick clans designed to fit a very specific role. They've been subsequently developed to be more than that, but only by covering territory already covered by others. The Sabbat clans have stronger concepts, but are essentially just darker archetypes of those found in the Camarilla. To a large degree unfortunately, all the non-Cam clans were essentially defined by their unique signature Discipline, and the official game has slowly realized that over the years and tried to fix that in various ways.

                          Really the only Camarilla clan that would need to change would be Tremere since they are so lore specific and dependent on a strict hierarchy. Opening them up to be an older and more open clan would solve that, so presumably using elements of the Salubri and Cappadocians could work.
                          Well, where is the fun in that?

                          Though, honestly you make a good point. I do think that the Sabbat Clans have character, but the Lasombra could just be Ventrue with a certain style and attitude, while the Tzimisce could be Gangrel who are more politically inclined or Ventrue who are more rural. The Independent Clans do rely pretty heavily on the gimmick Discipline and ethnic stereotype. I think that the Giovanni are an exception, but they’re also very similar to the Tremere.

                          So, I suppose I could just use some system far closer to the original 7, but, well, I wanted to make something different to be fun.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                            I thought about eliminating special Disciplines and I did to some degree. I felt torn about it because some of those Disciplines are iconic and others are gimmicky.
                            You could keep your spread and just rethink what role Protean plays. It is a "special discipline" only in the sense that somehow the original writers only managed to give this extremely iconic vampiric power to the Gangrel. But I can easily picture in the same structure you built on OP the three clans with "special disciplines" all having Protean instead. With the precise exception of the Gangrel they are all clans with at least some "magical" background and you have some elements of Protean in Mortis (acquiring aspects of the dead or the living), Serpentis (it is basically snake-themed Protean), Obtenebration (extending shadowy tendrils or changing into shadow) and some Infernal Investments (Daimonion is just Edgy Dominate).

                            Other than that, I'll be the one to say it, but I didn't liked the Basarab keeping the Giovanni Treason as a lore. That's the only thing I didn't liked about them. And I would change some weaknesses:
                            - Basarab, as written, will encourage them to live distant from their land as sleeping there accelerates their transformation. Do the opposite, instead of sleeping in your native soil giving you more animal features, sleeping outside of your native soil may be the only way to gain animal features, so staying at home stabilizes you.
                            - Azaneali, you didn't gave them a weakness, but I imagine that it will be the Setite one?
                            - Ravnos, if it stay increasing every night it will just make it completely impossible for them to stay in a single place, it is absurdly strong. And since it is also simple to get rid off, instead of having the two kinds of characters, nomads and hotheads, you'll have nomads and Masquerade compromises. Either cap it at +1 or make it take a week to increase after the first +1 and cap at +2, that way characters that really want to be more sedentary won't be too pressed and will actually (un)live with the penalty.


                            #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
                            #AutismPride
                            She/her pronouns

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                              You could keep your spread and just rethink what role Protean plays. It is a "special discipline" only in the sense that somehow the original writers only managed to give this extremely iconic vampiric power to the Gangrel. But I can easily picture in the same structure you built on OP the three clans with "special disciplines" all having Protean instead. With the precise exception of the Gangrel they are all clans with at least some "magical" background and you have some elements of Protean in Mortis (acquiring aspects of the dead or the living), Serpentis (it is basically snake-themed Protean), Obtenebration (extending shadowy tendrils or changing into shadow) and some Infernal Investments (Daimonion is just Edgy Dominate).

                              Other than that, I'll be the one to say it, but I didn't liked the Basarab keeping the Giovanni Treason as a lore. That's the only thing I didn't liked about them. And I would change some weaknesses:
                              - Basarab, as written, will encourage them to live distant from their land as sleeping there accelerates their transformation. Do the opposite, instead of sleeping in your native soil giving you more animal features, sleeping outside of your native soil may be the only way to gain animal features, so staying at home stabilizes you.
                              - Azaneali, you didn't gave them a weakness, but I imagine that it will be the Setite one?
                              - Ravnos, if it stay increasing every night it will just make it completely impossible for them to stay in a single place, it is absurdly strong. And since it is also simple to get rid off, instead of having the two kinds of characters, nomads and hotheads, you'll have nomads and Masquerade compromises. Either cap it at +1 or make it take a week to increase after the first +1 and cap at +2, that way characters that really want to be more sedentary won't be too pressed and will actually (un)live with the penalty.
                              I could see Protean very easily applying to other kinds of shapeshifting. Serpentis basically is Protean and Protean makes a nice alternative to Vicissitude. For some of the other Disciplines, it might be a bit more questionable. Maybe a more thorough reworking of Disciplines would help. You’re right about Daimoinon, no need for that with mind affecting Disciplines.

                              I wasn’t sure about keeping the Basarab family betrayal either. Though if we go with the medieval Basarab family as the heart of the Clan, it seems like some kind of change related to that might have to happen. Though I suppose that the Basarab family could be ancient and only reveal themselves in the Middle Ages. I actually mistyped my Basarab weakness. I meant for them to gain animal features when they don’t sleep in native soil, so we are on the same page their.

                              Yes, I think that the Azaneali weakness should be the same as the Setite weakness. Though perhaps some weakness to faith might be interesting as well.

                              As for the Ravnos weakness, I think you make a good point. I based in on the V5 Ravnos weakness, where they have problems that accumulate by the day. Though actual nomads don’t have a new sleeping place every night. They have a new sleeping place every week or month. So a more slow building penalty might be better. Maybe some non-linear accumulation of penalties. A penalty after a week, then after a month, then after a year.

                              I wanted to reply to your other post as well. I like the combination of Animalism and Thaumaturgy/Sorcery. Kind of like the Rafastio or Lhiannan. It has a pagan sort of vibe. I didn’t do that above, but I think it would be a cool combination.
                              Last edited by Sergeant Brother; 09-24-2021, 11:34 PM.

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