Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

My review of SABBAT: THE BLACK HAND 4.5/5

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    The Sabbat book, notably, say the Sabbat procreate so quickly that they haven't lost much in the way of their numbers at all.

    They've lost domain but are still as numerous as ever.

    Similarly, I doubt the Lasombra lost that many more members than they did any other Clan to the Beckoning and Second Inquisition. Remember the Lasombra didn't say LASOMBRA elders had to be killed, the deal said SABBAT elders.

    And this isn't me headcanoning or interpreting data, it's stated specifically in the text.

    The terms of the defected require for every Lasombra defector their must be one captured (alive) Sabbat Eldar, if White wolf don't think that's going to result in horrendous casualties in clan at then we can at least conceed this is very very bad writting if it doesnt yes?
    Last edited by Ragged Robin; 09-28-2021, 10:13 AM.

    Comment


    • The thing with the "3 Giovanni embraced in each generation" is neat, but it doesn't work very well at the gaming table. Like, what happens if the ST decides to run a Giovanni campaign and all of the players are playing brand new vampires? Now you have to work into the game why they just broke the "only 3" rule in order to embrace all 6 PCs. Easier to say that they're rare, but also you don't have to bend the setting over backwards if you want to run a campaign with the players being Giovanni.

      Comment


      • V5 is very much
        Well we made it like this because I wanted it like this.
        Just don't think about it
        At all.

        IDK, maybe I like overanalysing stuff more than the average person, but even if you delete V20 from your mind, you've still got questions like "What if the Sabbat claimed a city since they're so militant and organized and can obviously do it" or "What if I want a path but I'm not Sabbat" or "do these vampires really not understand that they're completely at the mercy of mortals during the day if they treat mortals with such contempt? I mean these vampires can supposedly survive for a hundred years or more and the old ones take leadership so SURELY SOMEONE WOULD HAVE A BRAIN."

        Back to "other editions existed"
        Anarchs used to be really into paths. Dark age vampires used to be really into paths. Independent clans were into paths. Paths being mechanically reduced to "just don't fuckin worry bout it" is... how is this 40USD if they can't be bothered to list shit like this?


        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post


          The terms of the defected require for every Lasombra defector their must be one captured (alive) Sabbat Eldar, if White wolf don't think that's going to result in horrendous casualties in clan at then we can at least conceed this is very very bad writting if it doesnt yes?
          In Chicago, but Page 40 lists a bunch of other qualifications asked for. Many draconian. Others not. But yes, it will be bloody and Darwinist like the Lasombra like it.


          I’m not done, though, and neither will the Camarilla be. They’ll push and push to see what they can get out of us, and they’re already doing so in a few domains I’ve heard of.

          The weak cities, the ones who lost half their Kindred population to the Anarchs, they’re the ones saying we just need to deliver the staked bodies of Sabbat troublemakers,

          Lasombra or not. The conservative domains? The ones we want to get in on? They’ve been known to ask for the following:

          • For every Lasombra joining the Camarilla, an elder Lasombra must be presented as sacrifice.
          • Lasombra intending on joining the Camarilla must submit to a Blood Bond.
          • A maximum of three Lasombra may exist in any one Camarilla domain.
          • Lasombra are to receive no warnings regarding the Traditions; just punishment.
          • The practice of our particular brand of blood arts is forbidden on pain of final death.
          • No Lasombra may hold title in Camarilla domains for at least 50 years.

          I could go on. The Camarilla love this new power they have over us.

          I say let them.
          Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-28-2021, 12:38 PM.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            • For every Lasombra joining the Camarilla, an elder Lasombra must be presented as sacrifice.
            Wasn't it Sabbat elders? Or are the books contradicting themselves now?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ideon View Post
              Wasn't it Sabbat elders? Or are the books contradicting themselves now?
              Yep. It's a different section where they say differently. But the letter is about saying different Princes demand different things (which means it's up to the ST's). It says:

              "The weak cities, the ones who lost half their Kindred population to the Anarchs, they’re the ones saying we just need to deliver the staked bodies of Sabbat troublemakers,"

              Not even Sabbat Elders in liberal cities. Just "troublemakers."


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                They could punch above their weight class because they were highly organized and had some very powerful vampires of low generation, but they were still small and vulnerable.
                This was always the vibe of the clan to me, and a very interesting aspect of them. Their write-ups always make clear the importance of their mortal family in their dealings, and that's something that shouldn't be taken lightly. No other clan have such a huge and organized group of mortals under their direct control, or even the same degree of direct control, as you don't even have to infiltrate or ghoul that many: they are your family, you're already bound by blood and culture.

                Originally posted by Jonny View Post
                I think the 3 embraces a generation limit is pretty interesting, but I also really like where the Giovanni are as of right now. They are most numerous and the "face" of the Hecata but by all accounts it's the Cappadocians that are actually running the show. Actually I would even go so far as to say I think the Hecata are the best written and most fleshed out sect in V5.
                Although I disagree with the last statement (but not too strongly), the rule of 3 Embraces wouldn't change much. The Hecata is formed by a union of small factions, far smaller than even this version of the Giovanni. Nagaraja are a dozen at most in the entire world, Samedi barely occupied the Caribbean, the Harbingers of Ashur are maybe three dozen even if counting them as a whole, which I do not consider a good option as, despite being all original Cappadocians, they're very politically distinct as there are Cappadocian loyalists, Lazarus' followers and Skulls.

                Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                The thing with the "3 Giovanni embraced in each generation" is neat, but it doesn't work very well at the gaming table.
                I disagree simply because that is an extremely specific example. And at such narrow example it is probable that you'll have exactly that, an extraordinary circumstance where some common behavior or rule was broken.

                There is no reason to believe that the Giovanni strictly followed the rule always, but the rule gives us a framework to think why such a situation occurred and what it entails, meaning more story seeds. Not to say that the PCs could easily NOT be of the same generation, and if they were it would be strange for 6 newly Embraced vampires in the same family/clan to be Embraced and put together anyway. Something IS going on to begin with.

                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                how is this 40USD if they can't be bothered to list shit like this?
                Covid-19. People are paying anything for any kind of home entertainment. But hey, at least it is your own currency, for me it's more than 200BRL and it is almost as expensive as it looks.


                #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
                #AutismPride
                She/her pronouns

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                  In Chicago, but Page 40 lists a bunch of other qualifications asked for. Many draconian. Others not. But yes, it will be bloody and Darwinist like the Lasombra like it.


                  I’m not done, though, and neither will the Camarilla be. They’ll push and push to see what they can get out of us, and they’re already doing so in a few domains I’ve heard of.

                  The weak cities, the ones who lost half their Kindred population to the Anarchs, they’re the ones saying we just need to deliver the staked bodies of Sabbat troublemakers,

                  Lasombra or not. The conservative domains? The ones we want to get in on? They’ve been known to ask for the following:

                  • For every Lasombra joining the Camarilla, an elder Lasombra must be presented as sacrifice.
                  • Lasombra intending on joining the Camarilla must submit to a Blood Bond.
                  • A maximum of three Lasombra may exist in any one Camarilla domain.
                  • Lasombra are to receive no warnings regarding the Traditions; just punishment.
                  • The practice of our particular brand of blood arts is forbidden on pain of final death.
                  • No Lasombra may hold title in Camarilla domains for at least 50 years.

                  I could go on. The Camarilla love this new power they have over us.

                  I say let them.


                  That isnt Darwanism, thats masocism Darwanism is survival of the fitting not "throw yourself into a wood chipper for fun." pretty much all those other rules would fuck the clan into the dirt as well

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
                    That isnt Darwanism, thats masocism Darwanism is survival of the fitting not "throw yourself into a wood chipper for fun." pretty much all those other rules would fuck the clan into the dirt as well
                    I mean, it's already stated the Lasombra emerge from this stronger and more powerful than ever so I don't see the problem. They knew the Camarilla would try to impose harsh sanction and they know to work around them.

                    Which they do.

                    Hence why the Lasombra are now a powerful Camarilla Clan showing up in various media.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
                      That isnt Darwanism, thats masocism Darwanism is survival of the fitting not "throw yourself into a wood chipper for fun." pretty much all those other rules would fuck the clan into the dirt as well
                      The concept of Social Darwinism is already an edgy stupidity on its own, although one with real followers. They're just not as smart as they think and rarely successful for the reasons they think, but they do exist. It also have nothing to do with actual Darwinism.

                      But this isn't Social Darwinism either. Social Darwinism is the idea that the "strong" naturally outperform the weak and accrue more wealth, and that should be left to happen. The "strong" does so because they're better, not because they're stupider, throwing themselves in hardship just to boast. That have nothing to do with Social Darwinism and have nothing to do with the Lasombra.

                      Much less to the word "Darwinism" alone, let me tell you all before hand that being called Social Darwinist is considered an offense in academic circles and conflating Social Darwinism with actual Darwinism (the theory of Natural Selection) is a common creationist attack on evolution.


                      #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
                      #AutismPride
                      She/her pronouns

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                        The thing with the "3 Giovanni embraced in each generation" is neat, but it doesn't work very well at the gaming table. Like, what happens if the ST decides to run a Giovanni campaign and all of the players are playing brand new vampires? Now you have to work into the game why they just broke the "only 3" rule in order to embrace all 6 PCs. Easier to say that they're rare, but also you don't have to bend the setting over backwards if you want to run a campaign with the players being Giovanni.
                        Even that kind of scenario is still possible under the original clan description and strict canon. Highly unusual, but still possible. The three embrace per Generation are people raised to later become vampires. Later in the same paragraph it says as a reward for extraordinary service later in life, other embraces may happen.

                        Now my interpretation is that the limits on the Giovanni are imposed by the Camarilla as part of the agreement that prevented them from being destroyed. They allowed three embraces per Generation and Augustus obeyed. However, because vampires get destroyed, you need replacements. So likely the Camarilla somehow approves additional embraces to keep the population stable and growing by a little bit. 1 Giovanni gets destroyed in a year, and the Camarilla says "go ahead, replace him." 6 Giovanni get destroyed and the Camarilla says you can replace three of them. Stop being so careless. But how the Giovanni elders explain it to the family is "extraordinary service deserves a reward." Again, that is my interpretation of what is going on behind the scenes and what is happening in someone else's head may be different. I just think that having the restriction to begin with, it should be explained and having the Camarilla be behind it makes better sense and a better story than Augustus arbitrarily deciding it to be so.

                        So even in this rare situation you could make it work. Or that Augustus for whatever reason didn't have any Giovanni be embraced the previous generation so there are still five open slots (maybe those 2 died in a car crash before they were embraced and the other drowned while yachting in the Mediterranean). "3 per Generation" doesn't necessarily mean it has to be 3 in that thirty year span and 3 for the next, or strictly 1 per decade. It just needs to be limited. You can still respect canon while not being a slave to it. It doesn't even require the setting to be bent over backwards even in that exceptional occurrence. Just some creative thinking.

                        But this is entirely a matter of personal taste. And I certainly understand that this restriction has been ignored for most of the game's existence. But that was what we originally had before 1995.

                        This is an example of why I like to say we don't have one World of Darkness anymore. We are in DC Comics territory with Earth-1, Earth-2, Earth-3 versions out there. And many STs modify the setting for their own chronicles. I don't see any need to respect "canon" when every new edition retcons or ignores any canon they don't like. It's a game. Keep what you like and modify it for your needs. I do have a personal preference for the "status quo" of early 2e because that was when we were given the original setting as our starting point, and the game was very open at allowing many different kind of game styles. But even I modify that based on new ideas I have and taking bits of Revised and other that intrigue me.

                        Comment


                        • I just take it in the context that the Lasombra know the Camarilla will impose harsh penalties on them as defectors en masse because they know that the Lasombra have tried to destroy them for centuries. The Lasombra are coordinating from behind the scenes to make sure that they know what is coming, how to work around it, and also negotiating the best terms they can until they can set up their own powerbase within the Ivory Tower.

                          It would make the Camarilla look stupid if they were accepted without penalty and it would make the Lasombra look dumb if they couldn't navigate the Cammie's terms.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            I mean, it's already stated the Lasombra emerge from this stronger and more powerful than ever so I don't see the problem. They knew the Camarilla would try to impose harsh sanction and they know to work around them.

                            Which they do.

                            Hence why the Lasombra are now a powerful Camarilla Clan showing up in various media.


                            Yes but will you conceed that fucking your clan into the dirt but somehow coming out stronger despite that being the exact opposite of how things work irl is really really bad writting?

                            Comment


                            • I still like to think it was the Lasombra that blew up the hotel during the Camarilla\Ministry meeting.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                                The concept of Social Darwinism is already an edgy stupidity on its own, although one with real followers. They're just not as smart as they think and rarely successful for the reasons they think, but they do exist. It also have nothing to do with actual Darwinism.

                                But this isn't Social Darwinism either. Social Darwinism is the idea that the "strong" naturally outperform the weak and accrue more wealth, and that should be left to happen. The "strong" does so because they're better, not because they're stupider, throwing themselves in hardship just to boast. That have nothing to do with Social Darwinism and have nothing to do with the Lasombra.

                                Much less to the word "Darwinism" alone, let me tell you all before hand that being called Social Darwinist is considered an offense in academic circles and conflating Social Darwinism with actual Darwinism (the theory of Natural Selection) is a common creationist attack on evolution.
                                Yeah thats my point. Social darwinism is nonsense but it certainly wouldnt advocate deliberatly disadvantaging yourself for some artificial challenge I mean a being who bends the knee in the manner the Lasombra did would be fundamentally inferior one in such a world view.
                                Truthfully describing the situation in optimistic terms is more reminiscent of deluded spin than anything.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X