Note: This is a post in reply to this post: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...23#post1463923
That is a.. really selective take on things and relies heavily on essentially taking a stance that this forum has seen a number of gripes about, including my own of course, that there's this idea that basically the only VtM that "counts" mostly came out in 1991 and *maybe* early 92.
This is not the same thing as saying the Anarchs were the most popular sect with the fans of Vampire the Masquerade. The very fact that the Camarilla was detailed as a thing in these books, by your logic, would let someone claim "the Camarilla was at least as popular." Milwaukee by Night had the Anarchs as *a* power within the city, not *the* power within the city. Which, particularly given things like Decker and the Anubi would be an interesting claim to make. They actually, and also in Chicago by Night, often felt like something of almost a relative minority, and particularly in the latter case with Maldavis, outright dupes.
While I'm there, Chicago by Night 1e itself, right in the "How to Use this book" talks about the potential for players who completed Ashes to Ashes and don't have anarch ties to have become Archons and Lodin's bodyguards, as though even right back then the Camarilla was being talked about as "potentially a thing the players are operating within as part of". And I need to try and have you understand in advance that replying to this with "well that means they were bad", does not change the point being made, that the book talked at one point about the pcs as though they were functioning within and along with the Camarilla just fine as an option for something players could have done and succeeded at doing. Because it feels like that's where you would want to go off that.
Maldavis was shown as a failed pawn of the elders of Chicago who got by as much from her hidden support by the Primogen as anything. You have a really un-nuanced take on Chicago by Night is the most I can say there. Especially the Second Edition of Chicago By Night. The Anarch Cookbook was an Anarch focused supplement that came out *after* things like the Sabbat getting a Sabbat focused supplement, so again by the logic you're putting forward, the Sabbat must have been the most popular group with the fans in VtM before that. In fact, books like "a World of Darkness" had come out before the Anarch Cookbook, and in the main had a pretty thorough multi sect focus.
UNDER A BLOOD RED MOON is also notable as one of the main releases for a vampire module and the premise for the vampire chapters assumes that the player characters are Anarchs because they have the central goal of killing Lodin and his supporters if at all possible.
Under a Blood Red Moon states that the characters can be Sabbat, Camarilla, or Anarchs, what are you talking about? There are literal chunks of the book called "the chapter for Sabbat", as in, if you are running the book for Sabbat players.
In fact, here is the first paragraph right under "the chapter for kindred"
As though that bit of the book is for Camarilla pcs. With other sections for Sabbat pcs. The idea that the book is solely Anarch focused does not jive with the content of the book. The characters can certainly be drawn into wanting to kill Lodin and his supporters, but reasons for that vary wildly from "the characters are the Sabbat" to "Al Capone tries to use them to destroy Lodin". There are otherwise options including not trying to be involved with Lodin's destruction at all and instead trying to prove to the Primogen council that the Sabbat are behind the Garou/Vampire conflict. The characters are potentially Camarilla enough that a potential ending is "one of them becomes Prince, somehow".
It feels like we're talking about two completely different books. I'm looking at Under a Blood Red Moon, this book:
Under a Blood Red Moon - White Wolf | Werewolf: The Apocalypse 2nd Edition | DriveThruRPG.com
In fact, from Drivethru's own description it's "Camarilla and Sabbat vampires", while we're there.
In fact the back cover of Under a Blood Red Moon says "a multifaceted story playable by Garou, Sabbat or Camarilla characters".
This claim does not work with the logic of your own statements. The Sabbat showed up as npcs and sect presences in multiple books before 1999. They were a part of the Revised corebook, that came out a year before that. They were a significant presence in A World of Darkness 2e, which came out in 1996. Under a Blood Red Moon, which came out in 1993 outright gave them entire chunks of the adventure module under the assumption of "if you are running this for Sabbat players". They had a player's guide in 1992 and a storyteller's guide in 1993.
The idea that the Sabbat did not get a major focus of the game until 1999, does not jive with the publication history of the game Vampire the Masquerade. The sect war certainly did not become defining until the revised era, but the idea that the Sabbat were not a major, playable presence in VtM before that doesn't make sense to say. This again goes to a binary viewpoint you seem to possess of something has to be the most important, or it couldn't have been important at all.
No, only sometimes. And certainly with decreasing mono-frequency after, say, 1992. The Camarilla was increasingly coming off as a valid option itself just fine. There are sections of books that talk like pcs are members of the Camarilla, seeking to advance and exist within it, not overthrow or oppose it.
My answer is, you've shown nothing of substance to support the claim you have made, and given the actual publication history and book content of VtM, nothing really exists otherwise to support that either without basically ignoring whole books or selectively reading existing ones. You want to say the Anarchs were the most popular sect with the fans of Vampire the Masquerade, and you want to base it on coming off as saying some books existed while ignoring the implications of completely different books existing at functionally the same time at various points, omitting the content of other books, and the like. The only thing you can say with any definition is that the Anarchs were popular enough that it was profitable to keep including them in stuff. But again, you could say that about the Camarilla and Sabbat as well.
Feel free, but unless they include the words "we conducted market research on the fanbase at the time and it showed that the Anarchs were the most popular sect with the fans", or "in terms of recorded sales, the Anarch only supplements outsold everything by a considerable margin", that's going to be straight up their own opinions besides.
That is a.. really selective take on things and relies heavily on essentially taking a stance that this forum has seen a number of gripes about, including my own of course, that there's this idea that basically the only VtM that "counts" mostly came out in 1991 and *maybe* early 92.
The Anarchs were initially given a lot of support as the central opposing sect of the Camarilla in the main book with BAPTISM BY FIRE (Modius vs. Juggler) followed by 1st Edition CHICAGO BY NIGHT. The Anarchs were presented as the "friendly" faction in the module ASHES TO ASHES as well as in THE SUCCUBUS CLUB. Certainly, MILWAUKEE BY NIGHT made it clear that the Anarchs were a major power inside the city with the feud between the existing Elders having the Anarchs led by "The Black Prince" who was, himself, an ancient Elder.
While I'm there, Chicago by Night 1e itself, right in the "How to Use this book" talks about the potential for players who completed Ashes to Ashes and don't have anarch ties to have become Archons and Lodin's bodyguards, as though even right back then the Camarilla was being talked about as "potentially a thing the players are operating within as part of". And I need to try and have you understand in advance that replying to this with "well that means they were bad", does not change the point being made, that the book talked at one point about the pcs as though they were functioning within and along with the Camarilla just fine as an option for something players could have done and succeeded at doing. Because it feels like that's where you would want to go off that.
THE ANARCH COOKBOOK was a release in 1993 with Salvador's introduction and the idea of how to wage war against the Camarilla as well as overthrow Princes being a primary introduction of the story. This was all before CHICAGO BY NIGHT introduced the Anarchs as the central threat to the reign of Prince Lodin with Maldavis shown as a Humanity 10 vampire versus Lodin as a Humanity 4 as well as just being a real asshole.
UNDER A BLOOD RED MOON is also notable as one of the main releases for a vampire module and the premise for the vampire chapters assumes that the player characters are Anarchs because they have the central goal of killing Lodin and his supporters if at all possible.
In fact, here is the first paragraph right under "the chapter for kindred"
The following scenes detail the story up to this point from
the perspective of Camarilla Kindred characters. It is a good
idea to read the previous section for Garou anyway, as the two
perspectives tie together throughout the story.
the perspective of Camarilla Kindred characters. It is a good
idea to read the previous section for Garou anyway, as the two
perspectives tie together throughout the story.
It feels like we're talking about two completely different books. I'm looking at Under a Blood Red Moon, this book:
Under a Blood Red Moon - White Wolf | Werewolf: The Apocalypse 2nd Edition | DriveThruRPG.com
In fact, from Drivethru's own description it's "Camarilla and Sabbat vampires", while we're there.
In fact the back cover of Under a Blood Red Moon says "a multifaceted story playable by Garou, Sabbat or Camarilla characters".
Yeah and the Camarilla content is generally from the perspective of a society the Anarchs are a PART OF and to oppose. The Sabbat have been playable since the near beginning but they were an Anarch offshoot that also came to prominence AFTER Los Angeles by Night. The Sabbat were not a major focus of the game until the 1999 Clan Novels where they went from being the occasional threat via siege to happening everywhere.
The idea that the Sabbat did not get a major focus of the game until 1999, does not jive with the publication history of the game Vampire the Masquerade. The sect war certainly did not become defining until the revised era, but the idea that the Sabbat were not a major, playable presence in VtM before that doesn't make sense to say. This again goes to a binary viewpoint you seem to possess of something has to be the most important, or it couldn't have been important at all.
Yeah and the Camarilla content is generally from the perspective of a society the Anarchs are a PART OF and to oppose.
I take it your answer is, "I do not believe the Anarchs were the most popular sect before LA by Night"?
See above. I'm also happy to ask developers if you want me to Twitter them.
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