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How to adjust the "classic" Sabbat to the V5 Sabbat

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  • #31
    Basically someone wanted the lasombra into the carmilla for some reason and was indifferent to considering the logistics of the event.
    Which is silly..because they already had the Lasombra Antitribu. They simply could have just said, they start embracing and have the numbers now to be recognized as a full clan. If the Banu Haqim can do it as the Schsim from their clan...I don't really see why they couldn't have just done the same with the Lasombra Antitribu instead of an explanation that contradicts all the previous material about the Lasombra. Add to your world, don't take away. Or if you do take away...recognize the past history and make it work in that conext. That's my opinion anyways.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post

      Which is silly..because they already had the Lasombra Antitribu. They simply could have just said, they start embracing and have the numbers now to be recognized as a full clan. If the Banu Haqim can do it as the Schsim from their clan...I don't really see why they couldn't have just done the same with the Lasombra Antitribu instead of an explanation that contradicts all the previous material about the Lasombra. Add to your world, don't take away. Or if you do take away...recognize the past history and make it work in that conext. That's my opinion anyways.
      My idea was the King's and Queens of shadow defected and paid transfered over all their assets to the ventrue. Nothing says I'm sorry like money afterall.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post

        Which is silly..because they already had the Lasombra Antitribu. They simply could have just said, they start embracing and have the numbers now to be recognized as a full clan. If the Banu Haqim can do it as the Schsim from their clan...I don't really see why they couldn't have just done the same with the Lasombra Antitribu instead of an explanation that contradicts all the previous material about the Lasombra. Add to your world, don't take away. Or if you do take away...recognize the past history and make it work in that conext. That's my opinion anyways.
        I think the problem is that you are suggesting the motivation was "The Lasombra are now a bigger presence in the Camarilla" versus "We think the Lasombra defecting from the Sabbat would be a good story." Defections from the Sabbat are a great source of drama and frought with all manner of interesting character details as well as potential drama that have been exploited for things like SHADOWS OF NEW YORK and LA BY NIGHT. It also creates a lot of interesting tension within the Camarilla by creating a rival for the Ventrue, an untrustworthy new player, and stories that wouldn't normally be possible.

        The logistics are not the motivation, the story is.

        Take note that according to The Gentleman Gamer, the person who actually suggested the Lasombra defection had to make a pitch to Paradox. It wasn't dictated down but was done in replacement of the Followers of Set that apparently he pitched.
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-03-2021, 04:50 PM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #34
          Ya except everything i have seen in the mediums you have talked about...I looked at those and said "so those are just Lasombra Antitribu"

          Nothing about them presented says, former sabbat Lasombra. You think the Lasombra defection was a good story. I think it makes basically no sense unless you factor in that V5 is just a reboot and thus ignores all the past material. Which is fine, its just a difference of opinion :-)

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          • #35
            Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post
            Ya except everything i have seen in the mediums you have talked about...I looked at those and said "so those are just Lasombra Antitribu"
            I'm pretty sure Aurora comes off as a psychotic ex-Sabbat.



            Nothing about them presented says, former sabbat Lasombra. You think the Lasombra defection was a good story. I think it makes basically no sense unless you factor in that V5 is just a reboot and thus ignores all the past material. Which is fine, its just a difference of opinion :-)
            How would you roleplay ex-Sabbat that have joined the Camarilla?

            Just out of curiosities sake.

            And yes, cancelling out the Vaulderie is something they'd have to do in-universe to allow a mass defection. I think Kupala's freedom at the end of TRANSYLVANIA CHRONICLES is a pretty good place to justify it given that Kupala's flower is part of what allows the ritual to work. You can assume that it was broken at that point and it fits into the larger metaplot.

            At least unless someone else comes up with a better idea.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #36
              RE: Aurora I mean...have you read some of the Lasombra Antitribu? Theres some like her, but the majority of those portrayed so far..are just Lasombra Antitribu

              RE: Sabbat defectors: They are either very young and escaped the sabbat before that whole lots of vincs and paths set in. Thus...pretty much like most camarilla vampires. If they are elders? I imagine much like Giangaleazzo. So lets ignore the like 20 obvious reasons why it doesn't work. How would it have happened?

              You need an Ur-Shulgi event. and for me...Lasombra Antediluvian lawl got ya, is lame. I'd have someone Like Blue Eye awaken and break the clan. And even then I would have it just be the Kings and Queens of Shadow (who were the most humane anyways) and most of the friends of the night...who are still alien monsters but tended to serve the clan and elders more then the sect. So maybe 200 Sabbat Lasombra defect? Certainly not half the clan.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post
                RE: Aurora I mean...have you read some of the Lasombra Antitribu? Theres some like her, but the majority of those portrayed so far..are just Lasombra Antitribu

                RE: Sabbat defectors: They are either very young and escaped the sabbat before that whole lots of vincs and paths set in. Thus...pretty much like most camarilla vampires. If they are elders? I imagine much like Giangaleazzo. So lets ignore the like 20 obvious reasons why it doesn't work. How would it have happened?

                You need an Ur-Shulgi event. and for me...Lasombra Antediluvian lawl got ya, is lame. I'd have someone Like Blue Eye awaken and break the clan. And even then I would have it just be the Kings and Queens of Shadow (who were the most humane anyways) and most of the friends of the night...who are still alien monsters but tended to serve the clan and elders more then the sect. So maybe 200 Sabbat Lasombra defect? Certainly not half the clan.
                I dunno. 200 vampires isn't that small of a number of vampires overall and might be enough to shift the balance of power. I basically have always stated that most Clans are about 2000 worldwide and that's from before the Beckoning, Second Inquisition, and other events happening. Besides, if it's the Big NamesTM defecting to the Camarilla and the heart of the Clan structure then it doesn't really matter if a majority of Fledgling Keepers stays with the Lasombra as a whole.

                As mentioned, the Salubri Antitribu may outnumber the "real" Clan a huge amount but they're diametrically opposed to everything the Old Salubri were about.


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                • #38
                  I mean....even in revised the friends of the night were generally considered useless and ignored by the majority of the clan. A relic from a long dead time. And even by your math..thats still not half the clan lol

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post
                    I mean....even in revised the friends of the night were generally considered useless and ignored by the majority of the clan. A relic from a long dead time. And even by your math..thats still not half the clan lol
                    I dunno, I thought they were pretty important in LORE OF THE CLANS by V20. They occupied a pretty significant chunk of the book's entry on the Keepers.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #40
                      My campaign's take on the Lasombra defection

                      This is just how it was done in my campaign because we were set in Tampa, Florida right next to Miami and a major part of our Chronicle has always been there's a major Sabbat City next door to our current home base. It was also a city that was ruled by a Lasombra Antitribu Prince so it was a pretty easy idea to switch "The Sacrifice" from Chicago to Tampa.

                      The premise I went with was that defection was triggered by the discovery that the Lasombra Antediluvian was still alive. This may not sound like a huge deal but it pretty much undercut the entirety of the rationale for joining the Sabbat. It was Gratiano's destruction of the Ancestor that resulted in the rest of the Clan choosing to side with the Sabbat.

                      Aiding in the decision was the fact the Gehenna War was not going particularly well for the Lasombra individually as opposed to the Sabbat as a whole. I'd always made it clear the Lasombra had a somewhat tepid relationship with their Crusades. Much like the Wan Kuei, the whole point of them was to reduce the surplus population of Neonates and either gain new territory or die trying. The Gehenna War was rapidly becoming an all-consuming obsession of the sect that was opening up new fronts every day.

                      Thirdly, the Lasombra leadership could read the writing on the wall regarding the Second Inquisition and while it was NEVER as effective as Camarilla propaganda made it out to be, it certainly wasn't weak either. The Fall of Vienna, Venice, and London were all orchestrated by Kindred but that just meant that there were a lot of Kindred willing to throw other members of their race under the bus. As Pam from True Blood said when asked how much loyalty she felt for her race, the answer was, "None."

                      In my campaign, the defection was never meant to be half of the Clan. The Amis Noctis and selected Elders, Ancilla, and favored childer were all planning to move. The Vinculum was broken with The Black Ritual which I invented for my campaign but basically just erased your Vinculum bonds and replaced them with ones to the Lasombra. It was an Abyssal ritual that was almost certainly Infernal in origin but one that the Lasombra leadership had been keeping on the down low. It was ironically, meant to be about 200 or so defections and organized with the help of several powerhouses in the Antitribu.

                      So what happened?

                      The Great Lasombra Fuck-Up

                      Well, the problem was the Lasombra leadership severely underestimated what happens when the leadership stabs you in the back. They also misread morale in the Sabbat as a lot of Ancilla and Neonates had felt the Gehenna War was using them as cannon fodder for nebulous gain. A trickle of defectors had been happening for some time at that point which promptly exploded. Once the Sacrifice happened, Keepers flooded lots of cities across the continent as well fought each other to provide Sabbat sacrifices for their defection. Paranoia meant that Loyal Sabbat like Talley ended up targeted by the Sabbat and forced to defect or die. Other Lasombra used the situation to settle old scores. Others planned to infiltrate the Camarilla, only to find themselves without a living Sabbat contact to confirm they were infiltrators.

                      The Vinculum should have prevented this from happening but the irony is that plenty of Lasombra defected with their pack mates (who had a much easier time joining the sects generally) or had lost so many friends that their Vinculum actually turned them AGAINST the Sabbat because their feelings were so raw from the casualties of the Gehenna War. A few defectors didn't want to defect at all but had to because their brothers in arms had.

                      It was a mess.

                      300 or more Lasombra defected of their own free will (for a total of about 500) and another 200 died in the process among other Sabbat leadership in what amounted to another Sabbat Civil War. Just one no one noticed because they were already in the middle of the Gehenna War. This was accompanied by the Lasombra of the Camarilla being granted the right to Embrace a decent chunk of new candidates to stabilize their ranks as well as fight against their new sect's enemies.

                      In the end, the Lasombra Antitribu plus the defectors was a slight majority of the Clan after a year's time due to the casualties in the Gehenna War/Second Inquisition combined with the number of defectors to the Anarchs and independent Blood Cults. Which was considerable by itself. This numbers game is a dicey affair, anyway, as the newly Embraced Sabbat Lasombra were increasingly referring to themselves as Antitribu as a sign of solidarity to their brothers.

                      A distinction outsider Kindred were confused by.

                      The State of the Lasombra

                      Not...terrible.

                      The Lasombra in the Camarilla are the smallest of the mainstream Clans due to the heavy casualties of their defection and the recent war. However, the situation is pretty stable. No monomancy and the Sabbat are preoccupied with the Gehenna War. Any vengeance is going to have to wait until the apocalypse is cancelled. The Camarilla does not trust the Lasombra and with good reason but this is a rare occassion where there is a surplus of riches. The defectors brought a massive amount of wealth with them and there's a great number of positions needing to be filled. Former Sabbat domaijns are also ripe for the taking.

                      The Ventrue are still firmly in charge and there are many cities where the Lasombra are simply not welcome. Their Paths often lead to "misunderstandings." However, the Lasombra are patient and have new allies in the Banu Haqim who share their status as outsiders looking to carve a piece of the Ivory Tower for themselves.

                      As the Rolling Stones said, "Time is on my side."
                      Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-03-2021, 06:16 PM.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #41
                        You don't actually need a made up ritual to do it. You can just use the Severed Hand ritual from Archons and Templars. Considering its a Sabbat Inquisition ritual and the Grand Inquisitor is a Lasombra...not that far of a leap. IF you need a reason to run that story.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post
                          You don't actually need a made up ritual to do it. You can just use the Severed Hand ritual from Archons and Templars. Considering its a Sabbat Inquisition ritual and the Grand Inquisitor is a Lasombra...not that far of a leap. IF you need a reason to run that story.
                          I wish I'd known about that. Thanks!

                          And yes, I am trying to make sense of the V5 changes because I play V5 and have a bunch of long-time Sabbat players.

                          Here's the crux for this thread's existence: My long time Sabbat players WANT TO PLAY IN V5.

                          They just expect me to make sense of it all.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #43
                            lol good luck, I don't envy that position. We tend to just ignore v5 and keep on doing what's worked for us.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post
                              lol good luck, I don't envy that position. We tend to just ignore v5 and keep on doing what's worked for us.
                              V5 is my group's favorite by far.

                              Mind you, my players generally love how in-universe disasters. My general strategy for the past 20+ years of gaming is to have events of metaplots hit their player characters like a train and figure out how to pick up the pieces.

                              When we do Star Wars, for example, I go, "Okay, good news, the Old Republic has fallen and now there's totalitarian dictatorship. You are all former Republic loyalists or Jedi. What do you do?" OR "You are all New Republic military officials, politicians, or Jedi. The planet Hosnian Prime has just been obliterated along with all of your loved ones." Even, "You are all Imperials pilots who were flying outside the Second Death Star.when it went boom. It has been a rough year."

                              Stability is anathema to my campaigns so I suspect I have fewer issues than most V:TM STs. My first V5 campaign was very easy to do, "You guys were caught in a Sabbat ambush and buried alive. You wake up in a slaughtered construction site and as you deal with the horrifying actions you did, you find someone's very advanced cellphone and discover it is no longer 2004 but 2018!"
                              Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-03-2021, 06:56 PM.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                V5 is my group's favorite by far.

                                Mind you, my players generally love how in-universe disasters. My general strategy for the past 20+ years of gaming is to have events of metaplots hit their player characters like a train and figure out how to pick up the pieces.

                                When we do Star Wars, for example, I go, "Okay, good news, the Old Republic has fallen and now there's totalitarian dictatorship. You are all former Republic loyalists or Jedi. What do you do?" OR "You are all New Republic military officials, politicians, or Jedi. The planet Hosnian Prime has just been obliterated along with all of your loved ones." Even, "You are all Imperials pilots who were flying outside the Second Death Star.when it went boom. It has been a rough year."

                                Stability is anathema to my campaigns so I suspect I have fewer issues than most V:TM STs. My first V5 campaign was very easy to do, "You guys were caught in a Sabbat ambush and buried alive. You wake up in a slaughtered construction site and as you deal with the horrifying actions you did, you find someone's very advanced cellphone and discover it is no longer 2004 but 2018!"
                                Okay that last one sounds like it could be really interesting.

                                But then I've always been a sucker for chronicles that begin with a Mass Embrace/Shovelhead start to it.


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