How to adjust the "classic" Sabbat to the V5 Sabbat

[CTPhipps]

Okay that last one sounds like it could be really interesting.

But then I've always been a sucker for chronicles that begin with a Mass Embrace/Shovelhead start to it.

I think part of the issue a lot of people have with V5 is it's culture shock for their characters. You can't just jump into it with your past characters but have to pretty much get their reactions to most of what is going on in the campaign. Part of why I liked THE FALL OF LONDON despite its many flaws was the fact that it puts you front and center for one of the major events and lets you impact it. The Fall of Vienna is something that your Tremere player characters should experience first hand.

Here's what I wrote for one PC from my archives:

"You are about to say something more when your chest suddenly seizes, your mouth goes dry, and you swear you're having a heart attack despite the fact it has not beaten since your final breath. Your mind catches a glimpse of distant shores where the Council of Seven have reigned for centuries as unchecked gods of the Pyramid and its countless bricks. You want to scream as some force rushes up inside you and then severs your connection to them like a puppet's strings being cut. You're on your knees before you even realize what is happening, the others around you confused and stunned at your sudden collapse. Tears of blood run down your face and onlookers call for an ambulance. Your mind...is free. Free from an influence that has been inside it, subtly influencing your opinions, since nearly your Embrace. Never has it been a more terrifying and lonely freedom or more apocalyptic in its implications. Somehow, someway, the Council of Seven was no more and everything has changed."

[SuperSabbatST]

See I don't mind change or huge metaplot events. I think the week of nightmares was awesome. My problem is when it's change for changes sake and it makes no sense with your past established continuity.

But...again if you just realize v5 is a reboot. It makes way more sense then trying to figure out all these massive changes the authors give little to explanation for.

Like we have to pages and pages on forums on how to try to make this and that work with what was established in the world. The answer is...you don't. It's not direction the owners of the IP are going. They are doing what they believe will work in video games and movies. Bout it.

Again just my 2 cents though

[CTPhipps]

See I don't mind change or huge metaplot events. I think the week of nightmares was awesome. My problem is when it's change for changes sake and it makes no sense with your past established continuity.

But...again if you just realize v5 is a reboot. It makes way more sense then trying to figure out all these massive changes the authors give little to explanation for.

Like we have to pages and pages on forums on how to try to make this and that work with what was established in the world. The answer is...you don't. It's not direction the owners of the IP are going. They are doing what they believe will work in video games and movies. Bout it.

Again just my 2 cents though

The problem with considering it a reboot is that none of the characters or events would have any sort of resonance then. All of it depends on you having an emotional attachment to all the characters and events occurring.

[SuperSabbatST]

If you are trying to adopt your pre v5 chronicle to v5 sure. If you just starting a new v5 game...not so much.

To me it's like trying to get a square peg into a round hole. I wouldn't waste the time and effort. I consider it a reboot by all indications by the author and if I run it assume it's a new universe with some inspirations from the old one as best. That way I don't have to keep trying to explain "what? But that doesn't make any sense to what I already know from years of experience!" To my players.

To me it would be like trying to say no requiem and masquerade are the same universe....I just wouldn't do that or try to explain how they are lol

[CTPhipps]

If you are trying to adopt your pre v5 chronicle to v5 sure. If you just starting a new v5 game...not so much.

To me it's like trying to get a square peg into a round hole. I wouldn't waste the time and effort. I consider it a reboot by all indications by the author and if I run it assume it's a new universe with some inspirations from the old one as best. That way I don't have to keep trying to explain "what? But that doesn't make any sense to what I already know from years of experience!" To my players.

To me it would be like trying to say no requiem and masquerade are the same universe....I just wouldn't do that or try to explain how they are lol

Well we come at it from very different places. I had no interest in V5 until Chicago by Night's Kickstarter.

The sole reason V5 is what I am interested in was because it revived and revealed a continuation of what was "my" V:TM. Really I'd lost a lot of interest by Revised because it had dropped the Midwest.

Now we have the characters updated to the 21st century.

It's why I could never get into Requiem. It did not have the history and continuity that makes Vampire: The Masquerade. Hell, it's why I didn't get into V20. V20 was metaplot agnostic and thus....wasn't really what I wanted.

[SuperSabbatST]

Hey I will forever wonder what could have been with Onyxs oath 4th edition and sad I will never know

[CTPhipps]

Hey I will forever wonder what could have been with Onyxs oath 4th edition and sad I will never know

Eh, it probably wouldn't have had Chicago and Gary so I'm okay.

[SuperSabbatST]

They did Chicago by night for v5...I'd bet money they would have done Chicago for v4. It's like THE city book

[Manfr]

Awesome thread, CTPhipps ! Chronicling the collapse of the Sect would make for a wonderful chronicle, and the discussion has given me a lot of ideas.
I’ll start with some notes about your points, and then go on with some other things:

1. The Sabbat Civil War was won by the Loyalists

On this, I agree with the posters who underlined the strong Ultra-Conservative vibes of the nuSabbat: nonetheless, your arguments are solid. I’d say that probably the Sabbat Civil War ended with the Loyalists splitting between those who bordered Anarch, and later on jumped ship with Vasantasena and Dominique, and those who allied with the Ultra-Conservatives and the Black Hand to show the middle finger at the Status Quo, something which probably also contributed to the Lasombra defection. Considering the elevation of Anti-tribu at the expense of Clans, I’d even say that Joseph Pander is, or was, a prominent figure of this nuSabbat.

2. The False Black Hand was defeated

I really like what you’re doing here, combined with the “Inquisition betrayed” point: the new leaders of the Sabbat were probably covertly influenced by the Lost Tribe, and were also a bunch of radicals. Purges would probably one of their priorities: investigation on what happened to Galbraith, perhaps the first persecutions against the Lilins, Inquisition going rampant with accusation of Infernalism, the silent aligning of columns loyal to Djuha and Jalan against each other … and then, everything falls apart, with mutual decapitation strikes. What a climax!

10. The Vinculum SHOULD have stopped the Lasombra defection

I don’t think we need a supernatural reason for why the Vinculum didn’t prevent the Lasombra defection: Vinculum didn’t stop three Sabbat Civil Wars.
As you have pointed out later on, both the Sect Wars of the late 90s, the Second Inquisition, the Civil War and the early phases of the Gehenna war will have caused tremendous losses to the Sect: many Lasombra will have no packs whatsoever, or be engaged with their packmates in grudges against other packs.
Vinculum brings together the Sabbat as a whole thanks to huge gatherings like Blood Baths and Crusades, otherwise it mostly creates strong intra-pack loyalties and inter-pack alliances: the more the Sabbat get strained, and packs are decimated by the conflict, the less we’ll see the Vinculum playing a strong short-term role in the Sect structure.

What is most interesting, and is given a brief nod in the Sabbat book, is how far the Sabbat implosion will spread knowledge of the Vinculum, and how the Elders will react to this. A degree of moderation in this would probably be the fact that Lasombra in packs were probably taking more a role as Ducti than Priests, and with Priests becoming Political Commissars they would be first in the firing line when the Lasombra defect along with some members of their packs.

11. The Serpents of Light defection

It makes sense that the rebranded Ministry, in its competition (real or not) with the Church of Set would extend an olive branch to the Serpents.
I would also say that they could be an active part of the Circulatory System, as we know they carried on experiments in former Sabbat Florida (close to the Serpents’ fortress of Haiti) and considering their possible links with the Nigerian mafias who widely employs sorcerous and voodoo symbolism.
This would maintain a strong rivalry with traditional Setite gangsters, especially as the Circulatory System goes global.

13. The Sabbat has an Antediluvian on its side

This, I like but with a strong caveat: considering the decentralized nature of the nuSabbat, I wouldn’t like Tremere actively manipulating the Sect. What I’d like more would be Tremere recruiting in House Goratrix the cutting-edge, amoral Thaumaturgical innovators, and offering them unlimited support to further their studies, free of their superiors’ interference.
Then, House Goratrix moves into former Sabbat strongholds, and offers Thaumaturgical weapons to marauding Sabbat packs in exchange for blood and armed protection.

14. The Salubri Antitribu have probably failed

I see your point, also the nuSabbat purging Honorable Accord would probably damage the Salubri Antitribu. However, I’d easily see them remaining on the frontlines of the Gehenna War, increasingly estranged from their peers but still committed to the Crusade. Especially if we consider some Infernal overtones that the Beckoning may have.

The quote about the three-eyed woman taking control of Alamut makes me think that Salubri may be leading the charge against Ur Shulgi.


And now, some other points:


Where have the Ventrue Antitribu gone?

Ventrue Antitribu were big on the Honorable Accord, to the point that in Lore of the Clans they were painted as having military monastic orders: if the Path was forsaken, how did they adapt to the change? I’d see some going Anarch following Dominique (the ones who were more 2nd Edition-like, snarky punk nerds more-rebel-than-you), but how would the sword-wielding Ventrue fare, in the nuSabbat?

Might some of them be recruited back by Lucinde, as the nuVentrue become more militant, and be used “against the Daeva”? Perhaps they could be recruited to fight a secret war against the increasingly overt Methuselah Cults …

Kyasid are having the time of their (un)life

Seriously, with the reconceptualization as Alchemist and Mixologists presented in Lore of the Bloodlines, and their EEEVIL plot in Beckett’s, I’d say that the Kyasid are having a very good moment.

Marconius has surely jumped ship to the Camarilla, and has probably been involved in the Lasombra defection; Kyasid are probably allied with the Hecata, and may be in talks with House Goratrix or House Carna, as well as providing refuge to Thin Blood Alchemists and experimenting with them.

Above all, I think they would be enthusiasts of the Circulatory System, sharing research with the Malkavians on the properties of the Blood, distilling dyscrasias and … well, probably following through the stereotype of Faeries as body-snatchers.

Sabbat Ravnos are the vampires you want at your blood party

As the star of the Lasombra and the Tzimisce as Antedeluvian killers wanes, Sabbat Ravnos are hailed more and more as survivors and prophets. They embrace this role, and even if they are few in numbers, they may have become a new connecting tissue of the Sect, wandering pack to pack and city to city preaching the Gospel of Gehenna.

The Order of St. Blaise and the Revenants adapting to a changed world

As the Sabbat crumbles and moves on permanent war footing, its support infrastructure must find new employers. I’d say that the Order of St. Blaise may be behind the resurgence of the Church of Caine, while the Revenants will have escaped the much anticipated purge by their Tzimisce overlords, but now have to face an uncertain future.

The fate of Sabbat refugees

Be they Cults that flee persecution (such as Lilins), surviving packmates and shovelheads running from the the Second inquisition and the violence of the Civil War, or shell-shocked veterans of the Gehenna War, I think many Anarch and some Camarilla cities would have had a significant influx of Sabbat refugees.
As CTPhipps has sayed and the manuals imply, this would lead to a small Sabbat-ification of daily practices, or at least some Sabbat culture creeping out: this can be used in-game to explore culture shocks, and I think it has interesting potential.

Mind you, I’d use this also theme also with former Camarilla and Anarch refugees: the neighbouring city has been purged by the Inquisition, and the survivors are coming to your town. Dou you welcome them, straining your resources and putting your Domain at risk? Do you cast them in the wild, at the risk of them behaving recklessly and alerting Inquisitors?

The rise of Blood Cults and Lasombra defection, on the other hand, would cause deeper political repercussions: many Blood Cults may be fronts for pieces of Sabbat infrastructure shifting their allegiance and moving with their packs and resources, a la walords. Lasombra themselves may come bringing their allies in the courts. I like the idea that they are initially employed as Scourges and other unpopular titles and functions within the Camarilla, to prove themselves.

Also, those True Hand elders who got discovered by the Black Hand may have departed with their supporters and openly joined the Camarilla, giving rise to Methuselah and Antedeluvian Cults: I paint most of them as the equivalent of the ultra-rich that, confronted with ecological collapse and rising social tension, say "Screw you", and lock themselves in gated communities, bunkers or try to run to Mars.

They would recruit desperate followers among the grinding mills of the Gehenna Wars, preaching the impending doom of the Sabbat and the need to please the Antedeluvians to be spared, while they just wish to recruit enough corpses to throw at their enemies while they hide and try to survive Gehenna.

The really committed, like the Servitors of Irad and the Children of Enoch, are trying to seize Praxis from India to Morocco, taking advantage of the Ravnos collapse and of the Assamite Civil War, to prepare for the return of the Ancients, and to gather troops to launch at the invading Sabbat.

[Vendrin]

Yeah, I am a lore junkie and there was a staggering lack of lore there. Could have put that in the missing 70 pages that would have made it equal in size to the Anarch and Camarilla book.

A bit surprised that you gave it a 4.5 out of 5 rating then given your recognition of this glaring hole.

[CTPhipps]

A bit surprised that you gave it a 4.5 out of 5 rating then given your recognition of this glaring hole.

I lowered my rating to 4.0 on the advice of Heavy Arms.

This book should absolutely not have taken as long as it did to be published. The writing is still top notch but I didn't give it five stars because of its length and price.

[CTPhipps]

Finally got to these.

2) I literally cannot read BJD because of the fonts used, so cannot comment.

Basically, Jalan finds out that the other leaders of the False Hand are Antediluvian worshiping members of the True Hand and starts a war with them. He plans to purge the Sword of Caine of the True Hand and bring it back to its proper roots. My idea was that he was going to lose in this conflict due to the True Hand being better than he thinks and Jalan being listed as KIA by the Second Inquisition. It also explains where the Black Hand went.

3) Probably, Orcs don't have unification after all.

Orcs are actually very unified and incredibly loyal to their masters. Part of what I like about the NuSabbat is the fact that they are all pointed in one direction. The conflict between each other has been mostly resolved, if at extreme cost.

4) The Gehenna War doesn't make sense RAW, Methusalehs just don't have the juice to cause what is implied to be happening.

The Methusalehs are still shown to have the same level of power in lore as they are in previous editions, just not in rules for whatever reason. The rules are not reflective of lore and I'm not sure what they're going to do about that.

(You don't have to convince me the lack of 6+ DIsciplines is bullshit--I 100% agree and it's my biggest complaint about V5 along with the Sabbat's lack of a write up)

5) Again, this shouldn't be happening, Packs should go through Methusalehs as stated like a wood chipper through a maternity ward.

Thankfully, we don't have to stick to the weird impotence of the rules in lore.

6) This doesn't make sense either, land for time only works in very specific circumstances, ones the nature of Vampire conflict doesn't engender.

Vampires don't need land the way mortals do since they can just grab someone off the street and feed on them if they're Sabbat. So there's no real need for the Sabbat to have domains the same way that Camarilla vampires do. The Camarilla farms humans like cattle but the Sabbat hunt and feed at will.

7) We would need a reason why, they already were pretty distant, the Prisci and Cardinals aren't exactly street soldiers.

The SI, Camarilla, and enemies like Ur Shulgi's people are pretty good reasons to go to ground as well as keep yourself with layers of minions between you.

8) Their is no indication this is true or intended and it has been made clear that Paths are off limits for players.

The Black Hand book actually flat out makes this one canon, ironically. The Path of Honorable Accord chapter says that at least some of the Camarilla defectors are still practicing the Path. I honestly see no need to believe they converted to Humanity and the very idea is ridiculous. Mind you, I think the idea the Camarilla supported Humanity over other Roads was stupid when DA did it.

9) Mary the Black isn't Mary the Black anymore, she is the host of the Archangel, and he has plans for Vykos at least.

Yes, it's interesting to speculate what she's up to now. In BJD, she had joined with Michael and was trying to build a new Trinity. Vykos was supposed to be the new Dracon but managed to get their seed out of them and it's implied that was the source of their ax-crazy nature for centuries.

10) Does Vinculum even exist anymore? If not why not?

It does exist according to S:TBH but its exact nature is now mysterious.

[AnubisXy]

Mind you, I think the idea the Camarilla supported Humanity over other Roads was stupid when DA did it.

I could kind of buy it. The Roads tended to give practitioner psuedo-supernatural auras which made interacting with kine more difficult (at least for those still getting their first steps on the road). The Camarilla was created to hide the existence of vampires in the aftermath of the Inquisition so it made sense that they generally forbade vampires from getting onto Roads since that would make it more likely that people would notice a vampire's supernatural nature. Of course some clans didn't really interact with mortals all that much anyway, so I wouldn't imagine they'd be too upset or necessarily notice a Nosferatu who was on a Road since those guys are already a walking Masquerade breach. But ultimately the Camarilla discouraged vampires from teaching childer Roads and so they mostly fell out of fashion.

[monteparnas]

I could kind of buy it. The Roads tended to give practitioner psuedo-supernatural auras which made interacting with kine more difficult (at least for those still getting their first steps on the road).

Between all the things that could make a Road hard on the Masquerade, how many options did the Camarilla really had?

And of those, how many are easy for neonates to pick up quickly as they need to be Masquerade compliant ASAP?

[CajunKhan]

I'd mostly just adopt various fanmade mechanics to the Paths of Enlightenment, and continue with the classic status quo. Here's the thing from my perspective: the old status quo of the Sabbat having substantial territory was a great story-engine. Sabbat with their own cities could have internal conflicts between packs and paths and all sorts of things. That goes away if the Sabbat don't have their own territory. Conflicts between Packs mostly just means they avoid each other or settle it in one straight-up fight if everyone is nomadic.

Depriving the Sabbat of territory is clearly designed for them to be purely enemies who encroach on Cammy/Anarch territory. It lacks story-engine material for playing Sabbat because they don't want the Sabbat to be playable. They have made the Sabbat unplayable not just by not providing Path of Enlightenment mechanics, but by obliterating secondary features of the setting required to tell Sabbat-centric stories.

So I've pretty much got to drop almost all of the current metaplot. About the only thing I can use is a toned-down version of the Lasombra defection, where the defection of a small number of Lasombra, combined with those ancient Lasombra who were always Camarilla breeding, has resulted in a significant Lasombra presence in the Camarilla.