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How to adjust the "classic" Sabbat to the V5 Sabbat

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post
    Ya except everything i have seen in the mediums you have talked about...I looked at those and said "so those are just Lasombra Antitribu"
    I'm pretty sure Aurora comes off as a psychotic ex-Sabbat.



    Nothing about them presented says, former sabbat Lasombra. You think the Lasombra defection was a good story. I think it makes basically no sense unless you factor in that V5 is just a reboot and thus ignores all the past material. Which is fine, its just a difference of opinion :-)
    How would you roleplay ex-Sabbat that have joined the Camarilla?

    Just out of curiosities sake.

    And yes, cancelling out the Vaulderie is something they'd have to do in-universe to allow a mass defection. I think Kupala's freedom at the end of TRANSYLVANIA CHRONICLES is a pretty good place to justify it given that Kupala's flower is part of what allows the ritual to work. You can assume that it was broken at that point and it fits into the larger metaplot.

    At least unless someone else comes up with a better idea.

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  • SuperSabbatST
    replied
    Ya except everything i have seen in the mediums you have talked about...I looked at those and said "so those are just Lasombra Antitribu"

    Nothing about them presented says, former sabbat Lasombra. You think the Lasombra defection was a good story. I think it makes basically no sense unless you factor in that V5 is just a reboot and thus ignores all the past material. Which is fine, its just a difference of opinion :-)

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post

    Which is silly..because they already had the Lasombra Antitribu. They simply could have just said, they start embracing and have the numbers now to be recognized as a full clan. If the Banu Haqim can do it as the Schsim from their clan...I don't really see why they couldn't have just done the same with the Lasombra Antitribu instead of an explanation that contradicts all the previous material about the Lasombra. Add to your world, don't take away. Or if you do take away...recognize the past history and make it work in that conext. That's my opinion anyways.
    I think the problem is that you are suggesting the motivation was "The Lasombra are now a bigger presence in the Camarilla" versus "We think the Lasombra defecting from the Sabbat would be a good story." Defections from the Sabbat are a great source of drama and frought with all manner of interesting character details as well as potential drama that have been exploited for things like SHADOWS OF NEW YORK and LA BY NIGHT. It also creates a lot of interesting tension within the Camarilla by creating a rival for the Ventrue, an untrustworthy new player, and stories that wouldn't normally be possible.

    The logistics are not the motivation, the story is.

    Take note that according to The Gentleman Gamer, the person who actually suggested the Lasombra defection had to make a pitch to Paradox. It wasn't dictated down but was done in replacement of the Followers of Set that apparently he pitched.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-03-2021, 04:50 PM.

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  • Ragged Robin
    replied
    Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post

    Which is silly..because they already had the Lasombra Antitribu. They simply could have just said, they start embracing and have the numbers now to be recognized as a full clan. If the Banu Haqim can do it as the Schsim from their clan...I don't really see why they couldn't have just done the same with the Lasombra Antitribu instead of an explanation that contradicts all the previous material about the Lasombra. Add to your world, don't take away. Or if you do take away...recognize the past history and make it work in that conext. That's my opinion anyways.
    My idea was the King's and Queens of shadow defected and paid transfered over all their assets to the ventrue. Nothing says I'm sorry like money afterall.

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  • SuperSabbatST
    replied
    Basically someone wanted the lasombra into the carmilla for some reason and was indifferent to considering the logistics of the event.
    Which is silly..because they already had the Lasombra Antitribu. They simply could have just said, they start embracing and have the numbers now to be recognized as a full clan. If the Banu Haqim can do it as the Schsim from their clan...I don't really see why they couldn't have just done the same with the Lasombra Antitribu instead of an explanation that contradicts all the previous material about the Lasombra. Add to your world, don't take away. Or if you do take away...recognize the past history and make it work in that conext. That's my opinion anyways.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ragged Robin
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

    This is one (of many) big flaws in the entire V5 metaplot. Not only should it have stopped any kind of mass defection of the Sabbat to the Camarilla, there is also the issue of why the elders of the Camarilla welcome vampires who have the knowledge of breaking blood bonds. Knowledge of the the vaulderie should spread en masse throughout vampire society once it is no longer contained in an isolated, secretive sect. The vaulderie doesn't need to be performed on a constant basis to do this. It just needs to happen once, and then vampires can go their own ways and not even have to worry about any lasting vinculum with other participants.

    The only way this part of the V5 metaplot could even work is to assume that for whatever reason the vaulderie just stopped working, and that even already established vinculums began to fade. There's all sorts of reasons why this could happen given the circumstances of how it developed in the first place.

    That would explain the Sabbat imploding into another civil war, and the elder Sabbat and Lasombra traditionalists defecting and the Camarilla welcoming them. It would seem less random than the pro-wrestling style face and heel turn plot of V5.

    Of course, that destroys a cornerstone element of the VtM setting. From my perspective, that is bad for a published setting. It's fine if an ST wants to do it in their own chronicle. It can be a fun and interesting idea. But every time a game publisher invalidates their setting details, that publisher is telling a major portion of the fan basis that their chronicles are now wrong. While some fans are fine with that and just adopt the new change, other fans don't. They've developed their own chronicles in a certain way and aren't going to change things simply because the game does. It just leads to fans deciding to not support the game line anymore because new sourcebooks won't support them doing what they want to do with their own chronicles.
    Basically someone wanted the lasombra into the carmilla for some reason and was indifferent to considering the logistics of the event.

    Back on subject one of obvious angles to go for would be to figure just how infiltrated the the other sects are because both seem very susceptible to this in current circumstances.

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  • Black Fox
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post
    10) Does Vinculum even exist anymore? If not why not?
    This is one (of many) big flaws in the entire V5 metaplot. Not only should it have stopped any kind of mass defection of the Sabbat to the Camarilla, there is also the issue of why the elders of the Camarilla welcome vampires who have the knowledge of breaking blood bonds. Knowledge of the the vaulderie should spread en masse throughout vampire society once it is no longer contained in an isolated, secretive sect. The vaulderie doesn't need to be performed on a constant basis to do this. It just needs to happen once, and then vampires can go their own ways and not even have to worry about any lasting vinculum with other participants.

    The only way this part of the V5 metaplot could even work is to assume that for whatever reason the vaulderie just stopped working, and that even already established vinculums began to fade. There's all sorts of reasons why this could happen given the circumstances of how it developed in the first place.

    That would explain the Sabbat imploding into another civil war, and the elder Sabbat and Lasombra traditionalists defecting and the Camarilla welcoming them. It would seem less random than the pro-wrestling style face and heel turn plot of V5.

    Of course, that destroys a cornerstone element of the VtM setting. From my perspective, that is bad for a published setting. It's fine if an ST wants to do it in their own chronicle. It can be a fun and interesting idea. But every time a game publisher invalidates their setting details, that publisher is telling a major portion of the fan basis that their chronicles are now wrong. While some fans are fine with that and just adopt the new change, other fans don't. They've developed their own chronicles in a certain way and aren't going to change things simply because the game does. It just leads to fans deciding to not support the game line anymore because new sourcebooks won't support them doing what they want to do with their own chronicles.

    Leave a comment:


  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Eh, part of the issue is that I think the Sabbat defectors have been definitely bringing a lot to the Anarchs and Camarilla. There's a reason so many Blood Cults and rituals are now showing up in both other sects. Then again, you're probably right that I'm seeing a far nastier and more vile Loyalists than most posters here. I've always considered them the ones who most disdain humanity and actively try to treat mortals like vermin as a way of proving their "freedom" from previous ties.


    I never claimed they were nice, they are not, but they see themselves as the inheritors of the revolt, rather then the UC who see themselves as the soldiers of Gehenna. Also unless I am missing something (and I could very well be) the Blood Cults are not good fits for Sabbat ideologies, even the ones of defectors.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post
    1) I would pick the Loyalists lost, if it had been the Ultra Conservatives running away to the Anarchs, the result would have been far different from what we saw, the Loyalists saw themselves as the True Anarchs, the UC saw themselves as the Sword of Caine.
    Eh, part of the issue is that I think the Sabbat defectors have been definitely bringing a lot to the Anarchs and Camarilla. There's a reason so many Blood Cults and rituals are now showing up in both other sects. Then again, you're probably right that I'm seeing a far nastier and more vile Loyalists than most posters here. I've always considered them the ones who most disdain humanity and actively try to treat mortals like vermin as a way of proving their "freedom" from previous ties.

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  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I'm presently debating doing another one of my articles for running the Sabbat in V5. However, I'm actually more interested in how to create a timeline for the events of the V20 Sabbat becoming the Sabbat of V5 as well as the consequences thereof.

    Here's some ideas I've been exploring:

    1. The Sabbat Civil War was won by the Loyalists

    There's a joke that V5 has been everything coming up [strike]Milhouse[/strike] Anarchs and that is interesting to explore as a concept applying to the Sabbat as well. The Sabbat Civil War predicted in BJD could have ended with the Loyalists making another play for control of the Sabbat. It's very possible that the Antitribu "won" this round and instituted a bunch of reforms based around their ideas of how the Sabbat should proceed.

    * All of us are Antitribu. There are no Clans among us.
    * The Path is a much bigger focus of our lives.
    * A focus on the pack at the expense of the national
    * A maximization of freedom at the expense of territory and hierarchy.
    * A renewed focus on the war against the Ancients.

    2. The False Black Hand was defeated

    The Special Forces of the Sabbat was something we learned were compromised completely by the False Hand and Jalan Aajav was going to war within his own faction in order to purge them from his ranks. This actually might be the start of the Gehenna War. After all, what would be a more accurate target for the Black Hand's wrath than the True Hand that worships Enoch and the Middle East? Unfortunately, with the rise of Ur-Shulgi, defection of the Assamite Warriors back to Alamut, and the fact the True Hand in V20 is NOT silly then its entirely possible Jalan lost this battle. The Black Hand was defeated and forced either underground or disbanded due to the tremendous casualties they suffered. They might also have had a number of their members Beckoned themselves.

    Also, as much as I love the SI, I fully believe that it would be the True Hand manipulating them that resulted in Jalan's execution. The remaining True Hand proceeded to become the Servitors of Irad and Children of Enoch from the Blood Cults books.

    3. Polonia was the last Regent

    Going with 1#, Polonia managed to persuade a huge chunk of the Loyalists to rally behind him and the Gehenna War because that was the only way to direct the angry masses of Panders, Antitribu, and other rabble. However, what he intended as a snipe hunt became an all-consuming war once they arrived and ended up battling so many Elders summoned by Methuselahs in the Middle East as well as Ur-shulgi's armies.

    Polonia was one of the Regents to die by violence, possibly killed by the Lasombra Antediluvian himself, and thus the Sabbat were once more leaderless. At that point, though, no single Cardinal could forward themselves as an alternative and were already engaged in battle with so many other Elders.

    4. The Gehenna War is multiple fronts

    The Gehenna War has multiple enemies:

    * The Shepherds of Ur-Shulgi and other Loyalist Assamites
    * The Ashirra
    * The Elders Beckoned to the Middle East and Northern Africa who didn't disappear. They were summoned and fight anywhere their Masters compelled them.
    * The Camarilla (which is the same people they've always been fighting)
    * The remains of the True Hand who are still pretty potent Elders and now have the aid of Moloch's Baali.
    * Places where ancients were spotted like Russia and going after Baba Yaga's childer along with the Crone herself (who probably used Obfuscate and/or Dominate to escape the Nictuku)

    Destroying someone like Menele is a pretty huge commitment of resources for the Sabbat even if they succeed.

    5. The Gehenna War is going well-ish

    One of the biggest issues the Sabbat have ever faced is the fact that it is actually quite hard to find and fight vampires hidden across cities. The Gehenna War, by contrast, is quite easy to find 1000+ year old vampires who seem to be coming out of the woodwork to do battle. Almost like they have been summoned to kill and die by forces that feed on violence rather than just vitae (ahem). In the past 15 years, the Sabbat have destroyed dozens of Methuselahs of both the 4th as well as 5th generation. Arguably as many as they've destroyed in the past 600.

    Their casualties have been IMMENSE. Much of their Ancilla population and countless Neonates have been destroyed but it has permanently changed the Jyhad. At least as far as they're concerned.

    6. Abandoning territory was a strategic decision

    The Camarilla broke virtually every one of their own self-stated rules by giving the Second Inquisition massive amounts of information on Sabbat strongholds thorughout the New World. It was a stupid and short-sighted decision that certainly solidfied the SI's impresion "blanks" were incontrovertibly evil as well as real. However, it also failed to do what the Camarilla thought. Yes, the Sabbat have abandoned Mexico, Montreal, and most other major cities. However, this is because they're an army of the march. Sabbat now "live off the land" and have far less need for domain than typical Kindred. It has also resulted in the Camarilla overstretching itself.

    It still does hold SOME territory but its consolidation in those cities is to provide money, IDs, and other things. It only need about 20% of its former territory because it's focused on all out war.

    7. The Sabbat leadership has pulled back

    The percentages of shovel-headed brainless cannon fodder to genius eldritch priests of darkness has shifted a bit but it's not been lost. Basically, the Sabbat have a substantial number of "armchair generals" who are the ones pulling the strings on their army of zerg. Vykos and the False Lucita are just some of them but they are in no danger of being the brainwashed stooges that other Sabbat are stereotyped as.

    The shovelheads have gone from, say, 20% of the Sabbat ranks to 60% but it doesn't matter because they're disposable minions from beginning to their end. The remaining 40% are protected by their "essential" positions and carrying out the sect's real business.

    8. The defections are not ideological

    This is just me but virtually every Lasombra defector is stil on a Path and there's no plans to change. They just claim to be "human" and carry on their previous beliefs in secret. The Sabbat who have defected whether Vasantasena (who recognized what it was becoming and failed to save it) or the Lasombra generally did so because they recognized the Sabbat no longer had a place for them. They are practical not ideological. Indeed, the Camarilla and Anarchs have both become a LOT more Sabbat-like due to the defections rather than the opposite.

    Against the rules or not there's a bunch of Path followers in the Anarchs and Camarilla now.

    9. The Inquisition was betrayed

    Lucita's faction of Sabbat reformists were primarily based around the Inquisition and those who wanted to make sure the Sabbat's principles of freedom as well as fighting the Antediluvians plus other supernatural evils were carried on. The True Hand (now corrupted by the Baali), Shaitan, Montreal, or Mary the Black may have been the parties behind it but whatever the result was the Inquisition was the first against the wall when the revolution came.

    Who profited from the destruction of one of the Sabbat's oldest and most venerable institutions? Is Lucita dead? Who is the fake Lucita? Vykos herself? Veyla? Gratiano? The Sybil? A revived Melinda Gailbraith?

    10. The Vinculum SHOULD have stopped the Lasombra defection

    It didn't. Indeed, Sabbat loyalists (small l) like Talley didn't show any hesitation.

    Why?


    1) I would pick the Loyalists lost, if it had been the Ultra Conservatives running away to the Anarchs, the result would have been far different from what we saw, the Loyalists saw themselves as the True Anarchs, the UC saw themselves as the Sword of Caine.

    2) I literally cannot read BJD because of the fonts used, so cannot comment.

    3) Probably, Orcs don't have unification after all.

    4) The Gehenna War doesn't make sense RAW, Methusalehs just don't have the juice to cause what is implied to be happening.

    5) Again, this shouldn't be happening, Packs should go through Methusalehs as stated like a wood chipper through a maternity ward.

    6) This doesn't make sense either, land for time only works in very specific circumstances, ones the nature of Vampire conflict doesn't engender.

    7) We would need a reason why, they already were pretty distant, the Prisci and Cardinals aren't exactly street soldiers.

    8) Their is no indication this is true or intended and it has been made clear that Paths are off limits for players.

    9) Mary the Black isn't Mary the Black anymore, she is the host of the Archangel, and he has plans for Vykos at least.

    10) Does Vinculum even exist anymore? If not why not?
    Last edited by Taggie; 11-03-2021, 01:56 PM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post
    I cam to this thread following your link about 'making the Sabbat liked bu the players' ( or similar) their is just not enough to work with, all the depth is gone, All we have left is flavours of wights with better table manners.

    but ok I will look again at your points and see if any make sense.
    I appreciate the effort.

    Leave a comment:


  • Taggie
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    I'd appreciate your input in this thread.


    I cam to this thread following your link about 'making the Sabbat liked bu the players' ( or similar) their is just not enough to work with, all the depth is gone, All we have left is flavours of wights with better table manners.

    but ok I will look again at your points and see if any make sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Taggie View Post
    They got lobotomised by author fiat, completing the assault begun in revised. The dev team wanted Orcs, and the sabbat are those orcs. That is why this happened, and their is no saving it.
    I'd appreciate your input in this thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Taggie
    replied
    They got lobotomised by author fiat, completing the assault begun in revised. The dev team wanted Orcs, and the sabbat are those orcs. That is why this happened, and their is no saving it.

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  • Ragged Robin
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    My only issue is authenticity to the setting and that the present situation hurts my suspension of disbelief.

    1. The Sabbat are all about how the Antediluvians are pure evil, need to be destroyed, and utterly contemptible. The Salubri Antitribu are about avenging theirs and his descendants.

    2. The V5 Sabbat are all about how Clans divide the Sect and they should all be Sabbat first, Path second, Clan Last. The Salubri Antitribu are all about avenging their former Clan.

    3. Most of the Salubri Antitribu are going to have been Embraced in the past couple of decades. Hence it's hard to imagine that they can muster much interest in avenging their past Clan while the Sabbat are telling them an entirely different story.

    That's just me, though.
    As opposed to all the 'odd' written decisions of the last few years such as no one noticing clan lasombra had the same discipline as clan cappadocian/giovanni.

    1) they're also very very keen to kill at least one of them.

    2) yeah but that's stupid and a clumsy soft recton which doesn't really enhance the setting, so should be downplayed. Especially as they treat paths like pseudo clans anyway.

    3) if clan culture was that easy to obliterate the lasombra defection would have been impossible.

    My counter point is how do your Sabbat players benefit? Clans provide a useful frame of reference and frankly people like them.
    Last edited by Ragged Robin; 11-03-2021, 01:11 PM.

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