How to adjust the "classic" Sabbat to the V5 Sabbat

[CTPhipps]

The Salubri don't really have to do their own thing, they just stand a little apart from the others with there own pet agenda which aligns quite well with the Sabbats

Why?

My only issue is authenticity to the setting and that the present situation hurts my suspension of disbelief.

1. The Sabbat are all about how the Antediluvians are pure evil, need to be destroyed, and utterly contemptible. The Salubri Antitribu are about avenging theirs and his descendants.

2. The V5 Sabbat are all about how Clans divide the Sect and they should all be Sabbat first, Path second, Clan Last. The Salubri Antitribu are all about avenging their former Clan.

3. Most of the Salubri Antitribu are going to have been Embraced in the past couple of decades. Hence it's hard to imagine that they can muster much interest in avenging their past Clan while the Sabbat are telling them an entirely different story.

That's just me, though.

[Ragged Robin]

True, I mostly am curious how the Salubri Antitribu fit into the larger Sabbat culture vs. doing their own thang.

I feel like the Salubri would be more inclined to side with their sect over their bloodline founder.

The Salubri don't really have to do their own thing, they just stand a little apart from the others with there own pet agenda which aligns quite well with the Sabbats
Why?
Also my objection is denial of player utility not meta justification. While written by a cretin the therian argument applies here

[SuperSabbatST]

Here's how Id make it work.

1. The Sabbat as presented by V5 is what happens when Nergal wins and takes over the sect. If they want to make them Baali's brood of Masquerade there is canon story to support that if you dig deep. i.e. chaos factor and mexico city by night. So basically what presented are just pawns and minions of Nergal who took control of it who secretly starting the 4th Baali war against the Antedluvians in the Gehenna Crusade as a mask.

2. Those Sabbat like the Grand Inquisitor, the Black Hand etc figure this out. The 4th Sabbat Civil War is still ongoing. Those sabbat that aren't the Sabbat as presented by V5 form their own coalition called the Sword of Caine and claim to be the real Sabbat. They actively fight against the Nergal controlled Sabbat. There's some clues to this idea in BJD as well if you dig into it. I would just style them more after the Lancea et Sanctum and make THESE guys the PCs.

If I was gonna do v5 and big metaplot changes.

[CTPhipps]

I said it was a bad idea not that it wasn't canon.

Same way they always did: dark knights persuing their long war with the tremere which considering the clan just imploded seems like a real high point for them. Blood in the water and all that.

True, I mostly am curious how the Salubri Antitribu fit into the larger Sabbat culture vs. doing their own thang.

I feel like the Salubri would be more inclined to side with their sect over their bloodline founder.

[Ragged Robin]

Well, 12 is just canon according to CULTS OF THE BLOOD GODS. It's just how the Sabbat would perceive it.

I'm also not sure how the Revised Salubri Anitribu would fit in with V5's Sabbat.

I said it was a bad idea not that it wasn't canon.

Same way they always did: dark knights persuing their long war with the tremere which considering the clan just imploded seems like a real high point for them. Blood in the water and all that.

[CTPhipps]

Anything V5 Sabbat can do, OG Sabbat can do better and more. V5ing your Sabbat kills off their long-term value.

Besides, regional conflicts are, imo, just better than global metaplot changes. Easily reversable or avoidable. Universal table flipping is just Hubris that takes agency away from players and storytellers.

Bluntly, I disagree. I like being setting-changing events and hate keeping things the same. Besides, I prefer to keep things consistent with canon.

I don't begrudge Storytellers who do their own thing but it's not my thing.

I'd probably scrap 11,12 and 14 because they're reductive/obstructuve to player utility rather than conductive. 13 could be cool.

Well, 12 is just canon according to CULTS OF THE BLOOD GODS. It's just how the Sabbat would perceive it.

I'm also not sure how the Revised Salubri Anitribu would fit in with V5's Sabbat.

[Ragged Robin]

I'd probably scrap 11, 12 and 14 and kinda because they're reductive/obstructuve to player utility and Storytelling rather than conductive. 13 could be cool.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Because change is exciting

Anything V5 Sabbat can do, OG Sabbat can do better and more. V5ing your Sabbat kills off their long-term value.

Besides, regional conflicts are, imo, just better than global metaplot changes. Easily reversable or avoidable. Universal table flipping is just Hubris that takes agency away from players and storytellers.

[CTPhipps]

A few more ideas that occur to me:

11. The Serpents of Light defection

This will probably be controversial but I think the Ministry should include a huge number of the former Serpents of Light. They broke away from the Followers of Set because they were a bunch of crazy blasphemous psychopaths worshiping an evil god, so the idea of joining with the other breakaway polytheists strikes me as very probable. The remaining SoL have since started calling themselves Setite Antitribu and are really pissed about this.

12. The Harbingers noped out the fuck out of there

This is pretty much confirmed as canon but the Harbingers of Skulls managed to ACHIEVE their goal of destroying their Antediluvian enemy. They were also pretty old blooded vampires as well. The Sabbat have some respect for this action but are still furious that they're no longer supporting the suicide crusade. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a treaty that most younger Sabbat don't feel obliged to honor. Technically, though, the Harbingers are the most successful Sabbat of all time.

13. The Sabbat has an Antediluvian on its side

Tremere in Goratrix's body is pulling the strings of the Sabbat as the leader of House Goratrix. He could probably rule the entire sect if he wanted (except remove the could) but has no desire to. Instead, he's the guy who has pointed the Sabbat at so many other Ancients and the Banu Haqim in particular. For maximum irony's sake, I'd say House Goratrix should have a powerful alliance with the Salubri Antitribu. Tremere is PROBABLY responsible for the fall of Vienna but is also out to stop Ur-Shulgi.

14. The Salubri Antitribu have probbaly failed

I feel kind of maudlin here but my idea is that Adonai's plan to avenge his Clan has failed. Not for lack of effort on his part but because the Salubri Antitribu have been absorbed into the greater Sabbat. You can't really indoctrinate an army of Neonates to believing you should avenge your Clan when everyone else is telling you that your clan is bullshit. Now most Salubri Antis are indistinguisbale from other shovelheads. I imagine Adonai himself is dead or been forced into hiding.

15. The Sabbat leadership is aware of the Tzimisce and Lasombra Antediluvians survival

Basically, due to the events of Beckett's Jyhad Diary, the Sabbat is aware that both their claimed Antediluvians are still alive. This is kept from the Sabbat at large even as rumors are still around. Still, plenty of Lasombra and Tzimisce Elders have vanished to the Beckoning. Vykos is one of the few left and believes the Dracon is out to get them.

[CTPhipps]

Don't you just love it when gms and players are forced to come up with reasons for major setting changes because the developers can't be bothered to come up with them themselves?

Seems like the Sabbat book would have been the perfect place to explain how we went from classic Sabbat to v5 Sabbat. It certainly had the room for extra pages.

Yeah, I am a lore junkie and there was a staggering lack of lore there. Could have put that in the missing 70 pages that would have made it equal in size to the Anarch and Camarilla book.

As someone who played the original Sabbat decades ago, I'm perplexed by this. Are these defections false? You can play a Lasombra character in a Camarilla Chronicle, so revealing the Lasombra Defection to be a well planned ruse in future books would disrupt the game for those players (not as if nullifying the foundational story elements for people's Chronicles who spent money on the books hasn't been done before). Back when I played, a vinculum rating of 10 was as powerful as a blood bond and you had one to the Sabbat itself.

Yeah, there might be an explanation but it would be the focus of a Chronicle:

* The Lasombra Antediluvian broke the connection for some reason.
* A demonic being like Kupala broke the Vinculum (which is his doing anyway) in exchange for the Amis Nocti making some sort of deal with them.
* A suitably powerful Abyssal ritual.
* The Vinculum "snapped" for some reason that is related to the Beckoning.
* It was the work of the Tremere Antediluvian who is part of the Sabbat anyway as the leader of "House Goratrix" - I mean, this guy can do it.
* There's a way to break the Vinculum by mixing Thin Blooded vitae with it. This was a secret the Lasombra leaders discovered and started using to free their chosen elite.
* The number of defectors is actually just a few dozen and were isolated by the Amis Nocti beforehand.

I'm up for alternate in-universe explanations.

Personally I'd recommend downplaying some aspects, maintain honorable accord, humanity and beast. Territory and rank still apply because they do in the books being rather oddly written on the subject. Since the Sabbat is on total war footing I'd recommend the home front has logistical aspects rather than just running around like they're the vampires from near dark.

Successful termination of some of the ancients is a good idea because it gives the sect some actual edge and legitimacy. Maybe one of the 3rd, tzimsce perhaps?

Frankly v5 sabbat are pretty boring as written but there is the potential there, I'd recommend grafting the cagey, scary army of Darkness from revised on as much as possible.

1. I think the V5 Sabbat book is weird because the Path of Honorable Accord described inside it isn't the Path of Honorable Accord I know. HA followers aren't humane or decent people. Its not the Path of Chivalry from Dark Ages. They're fanatics of the Sabbat and professional soldiers. They would fit very well into the new regime.

2. The Path of the Beast is something I'm back and forth on because I actually think it fits that the Sabbat are not doing it right. The Path of Harmony was destroyed because it was too kind. The Path of the Beast is ALSO still too nice because it's about being an animal not a monster. I can see how the Sabbat have corrupted it while claiming it was the Path that failed.

3. I didn't have a problem with Low Humanity vampires in the Sabbat unlike Taggie who has always maintained it should be pure Path followers. However, I am also of the mind that the Paths could have been dumbed down IN-UNIVERSE. Basically, the Pop Christianity versions of the Paths that lack most of the nuance. You could probably only get up to Level 5 on one of these but most Sabbat will never notice.

4. I don't think the book was inconsistent so much as saying that territory is now less important than it used to be. There's still a few "fortress" cities of the Sabbat but they aren't trying to conquer and keep territory like they used to. Which is a way to distinguish the Sabbat from what it used to be and both the Camarilla and Anarchs who very much are fighting over turf/domain.

5. The "confirmed dead" Antediluvians are Ravnos and Augustus Giovanni. Probably Set and Ventrue too. Malkav has also become one with his clan as per BJD. So it's interesting to speculate on if any others have been destroyed. Mind you, I always liked the idea there were more than 13 as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the Sabbat THINK they've destroyed a few Antediluvians but how would they know?

6. Revised is my favorite Sabbat, even if I do add a lot of 2nd Edition Infernalism.

[Vendrin]

Don't you just love it when gms and players are forced to come up with reasons for major setting changes because the developers can't be bothered to come up with them themselves?

Seems like the Sabbat book would have been the perfect place to explain how we went from classic Sabbat to v5 Sabbat. It certainly had the room for extra pages.

[Ragged Robin]

Personally I'd recommend downplaying some aspects, maintain honorable accord, humanity and beast. Territory and rank still apply because they do in the books being rather oddly written on the subject. Since the Sabbat is on total war footing I'd recommend the home front has logistical aspects rather than just running around like they're the vampires from near dark.

Successful termination of some of the ancients is a good idea because it gives the sect some actual edge and legitimacy. Maybe one of the 3rd, tzimsce perhaps?

Frankly v5 sabbat are pretty boring as written but there is the potential there, I'd recommend grafting the cagey, scary army of Darkness from revised on as much as possible.

[HorizonParty2021]

10. The Vinculum SHOULD have stopped the Lasombra defection

It didn't. Indeed, Sabbat loyalists like Talley didn't show any hesitation.

Why?

As someone who played the original Sabbat decades ago, I'm perplexed by this. Are these defections false? You can play a Lasombra character in a Camarilla Chronicle, so revealing the Lasombra Defection to be a well planned ruse in future books would disrupt the game for those players (not as if nullifying the foundational story elements for people's Chronicles who spent money on the books hasn't been done before). Back when I played, a vinculum rating of 10 was as powerful as a blood bond and you had one to the Sabbat itself.

[Jonny]

I think it's a matter of interpretation but the Sabbat of V5 seem to have a very strong Loyalist bent to them. They've done away with most of the Sabbat's heirarchy, eliminated the status difference between the Lasombra/Tzimisce and Antitribu (which the Panders were all about), and now are enforcing the war against the Elders that was the original sect's goals to the exclusion of all else. Yes, there's an irony that they're all cannon fodder for the sect now but they're EQUAL as cannon fodder!

There is less heirarchy because it'all shovelheads now, but that doesn't mean there is more Loyalists. It just means the ultra-conservative powers-that-be kicked out the middle class.

[Amethyst]

This is really awesome! One point to bear in mind: in the Apocalyptic Record Kickstarter it says that the Garou destroyed Baba Yaga.