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The Death of Melinda Galbraith

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  • Karos
    started a topic The Death of Melinda Galbraith

    The Death of Melinda Galbraith

    I'm currently working on a chronicle set in Mexico City, following the eruption of the Fourth Sabbat Civil War. What I'm trying to pin down, however, is what exactly happened around Galbraith's death in terms of a timeline.

    Clanbook Tzimisce Revised - States that the true Galbraith was slain in 2000 as part of the 'Millenial Palla Grande', it also shows the 'arcane symbol' left to mark her death and Sikorsky standing over the remains.

    Mexico City by Night - Contradicts this, it instead states that Galbraith dies in 2001 and the remains were again discovered by Sikorsky, symbol and all. (I'm inclined to include this is just a typo and should read 2000, not 2001.)

    Beckett's Jyhad Diary - This muddles things even more, it seems to suggest that Galbraith died well before 2000 (according to Vasantasena it was 'sixteen years ago') and that Sikorsky who'd been impersonating Galbraith was the one killed in 2000. This is confusing on three counts:
    1) It alleges that Galbraith died 16 years prior in 1984 and was replaced by Sikorsky, this means both Mexico City and Clanbook Tzimisce were incorrect and Sikorsky would've had to discover and impersonate the Regent much earlier. This isn't possible, however, as Sikorsky wasn't embraced until 1996.
    2) Vasantasena theorises that 'whatever annihilated the Tremere antitribu just a year before' is responsible. The issue being, the Tremere Antitribu were destroyed in 1998, meaning a year later is 1999. This doesn't tally with the original year of 2000 or 1984.
    3) It is heavily implied that the Palla Grande Beckett attends is the Millenial Palla Grande, i.e. that in the year 2000 when the Sabbat Fourth Civil War erupts. If this is the case, then we'd have both Galbraith and then her impersonator dying in short succession on the same night.

    So my current timeline is:
    1984 - The death of Galbraith, according to Vasantasena. (BJD)
    1996 - Sikorsky, eventual impersonator of Galbraith is embraced. (Clanbook Tzimisce)
    2000 - Galbraith is killed and impersonated by Sikorsky. (Clanbook Tzimisce)
    2000 - Sikorsky (in the form of Galbraith) is killed. (BJD)
    2001 - Galbraith is killed and impersonated by Sikorsky. (Mexico City by Night)

    Any input much appreciated, this is going to be quite pivotal to my chronicle so I'm keen to get the dates right!

  • Karos
    replied
    Originally posted by Saga View Post
    I'd usually suggest new players who wish to learn VtM lore to start with BJD, but this case in particular brings me old white-wolf forum memories and when you deal with timelines, I do have one plus genealogies that can help. I'm currently re-reading Clan Lasombra Trilogy since a lot of it happens in Mexico City from 1999 to 2000, I already have done that for TCIV chapter "The Accounting".
    - Saga
    Genealogies could certainly be useful for settling this one, might also help with the V5 Timeline we're trying to build if you're happy to share it?

    Leave a comment:


  • Saga
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Eh, it was also given the hard task of interpreting everything that toward the ends had gotten out of control and presenting a new non-Gehenna ending to the metaplot.

    So I take it as a retcon superseding it.
    I'd usually suggest new players who wish to learn VtM lore to start with BJD, but this case in particular brings me old white-wolf forum memories and when you deal with timelines, I do have one plus genealogies that can help. I'm currently re-reading Clan Lasombra Trilogy since a lot of it happens in Mexico City from 1999 to 2000, I already have done that for TCIV chapter "The Accounting".

    - Saga

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Saga View Post
    I see the dating confusion. "an affirmation that the Sabbat had survived into the 21st Century." vs. "The 2001 Palla Grande was the most magnificent festival the Sabbat had thrown in decades." I remember canon history back when it was published and I believe that Galbraith's death was to be in 2000, mostly according to what was happening elsewhere too.

    I'd suggest to completely ignore BJD since it mostly rewrites everything canon from 1st ed, 2nd ed and Revised. Take on account all that happens there but I'd prioritize on how it happened on previous editions, since there the lore is richer.

    I'll research a bit on what happens during those times you'll ST/play and post them here later.

    - Saga
    Eh, it was also given the hard task of interpreting everything that toward the ends had gotten out of control and presenting a new non-Gehenna ending to the metaplot.

    So I take it as a retcon superseding it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saga
    replied
    I see the dating confusion. "an affirmation that the Sabbat had survived into the 21st Century." vs. "The 2001 Palla Grande was the most magnificent festival the Sabbat had thrown in decades." I remember canon history back when it was published and I believe that Galbraith's death was to be in 2000, mostly according to what was happening elsewhere too.

    I'd suggest to completely ignore BJD since it mostly rewrites everything canon from 1st ed, 2nd ed and Revised. Take on account all that happens there but I'd prioritize on how it happened on previous editions, since there the lore is richer.

    I'll research a bit on what happens during those times you'll ST/play and post them here later.

    - Saga

    Leave a comment:


  • Karos
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    I have the same doubt. Personally that's one of the downsides I see on Fandom wikis. On more sturdy projects like Wikipedia, Bulbapedia or TV Tropes we have messy but extensive and informative talk pages and policies for marking problems that can affect reliability.

    Fandom, though, is obtrusive to reach and use the talk pages, and against the implementation of Concern Boxes or anything like that. They just want to milk adds furiously, and that doesn't help with curating content at all.

    A shame 'cause a lot of the entries on there a great starting off points for researching topics. When the citations are there, it's like a good Wikipedia page, a place to find the full sources to start your own research.

    Just a shame that it's the only place that has V5 timeline (at least that I could find easily) and that it effectively provides zero citations for any of the events and dates that it lists.

    Leave a comment:


  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Karos View Post
    Indeed, I'm just trying to think of places where that 2013 date might've come from.
    I have the same doubt. Personally that's one of the downsides I see on Fandom wikis. On more sturdy projects like Wikipedia, Bulbapedia or TV Tropes we have messy but extensive and informative talk pages and policies for marking problems that can affect reliability.

    Fandom, though, is obtrusive to reach and use the talk pages, and against the implementation of Concern Boxes or anything like that. They just want to milk adds furiously, and that doesn't help with curating content at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Karos
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    The wiki is good, but it does have the problem common to the model that not all bits of information there are equally reliable, and that is specially true for Fandom wikis.

    I think this timeline of yours seems sound and good for now, unless we get a more official source on the matter.

    And that's the problem with Word of God, as good as it may be it isn't really as reliable as it seems. Authors forget, get confused, change their mind and so on.

    Indeed, I'm just trying to think of places where that 2013 date might've come from. There must be something that would cause someone to note that on the Wiki, so the question is what source was there? It could be a random tweet from an author, but it'd be nice to know how canonical that last detail is. (Especially as it's the last thing confounding the timeline.)

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    I think by 2021, the Sabbat's upper ranks are fine. They're just hunkered down in bunkers and letting the shovelheads do the vast majority of the heavy lifting. Its the Ancilla and the Neonates who were used as cannon fodder en masse.

    Leave a comment:


  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Karos View Post
    At least according to the V5 timeline on the Wiki, the Camarilla took the city in 2013, which would mean the Palla Grande can't be in 2016. (This said, the wiki, doesn't provide a citation for the 2013 capture and I can't find anything definitive in the V5: Corebook, or the Camarilla, Anarch, and Sabbat Guides.)[/B]
    The wiki is good, but it does have the problem common to the model that not all bits of information there are equally reliable, and that is specially true for Fandom wikis.

    I think this timeline of yours seems sound and good for now, unless we get a more official source on the matter.

    And that's the problem with Word of God, as good as it may be it isn't really as reliable as it seems. Authors forget, get confused, change their mind and so on.

    Leave a comment:


  • Karos
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

    Others are right in saying that BJD has a flexible time period covering the time period from Revised to just before V5. So '16 years ago' would seem to refer to the year 2000 (this part is therefore set in 2016, when the book was published).

    [... edited for brevity]

    There are some nice plot convergences there if you look for them. And the fact that most of the lore is served with a big fat dollop of 'unreliable narrator' makes it easier to wing it.
    I can understand that perspective, that just seems weird given that Dawkins has stated the book's timeline is meant to end around 2005 except for a few particular exceptions. If that chapter happens in 2016, then that means a lot of the book happens much later than that 2005 end-point. That said however, that means we get a timeline more like this:

    1996 - Sikorsky is embraced.

    1998 - The Tremere Antitribu are destroyed by unknown forces. (Vasantasena alludes these may also be behind the murder of Galbraith 'a year later', she's out by a year, but that's not miles.)

    2000 - Galbraith is killed by unknown parties and impersonated by Sikorsky.

    Circa. 2000-2001 - Aajav and Vasantasena work out the impersonation of Galbraith by Sikorsky and work to cover it up to ensure Sabbat unity. (Maria Sandoza may also be aware and instruct the Sabbat Inquisition to support/allow the conspiracy.)

    2001 - The 9/11 attacks occur, De Pollonia claims involvement stating that it was the opening salvo in the Gehenna Crusade.

    2003 -
    1) The Gehenna Crusade begins as Sabbat follow troops involved in the Iraq War to the Middle East. (Beckett's Diary notes they start travelling around the time of Op: Iraqi Freedom.)
    2) Camarilla leaders leak information on the Sabbat to mortal intelligence agencies, hoping to destroy them as part of the War on Terror.
    3) Project FIRSTLIGHT is formed by the US Intelligence services.

    2013 -
    1) The Gehenna Crusade begins in earnest. (As implied by Lucita's comment 'Hundreds of Cainites have already gone East to destroy the graves of the ancients in the shadow of the mortal war and we're only three years into this.' This oddly implies that not many Sabbat went to star and that for some reason in 2013 there was a significant increase in Gehenna Crusaders.)
    2) The Camarilla takes Mexico City from the Sabbat.

    2016 -
    1) Lucita and Beckett attend the Palla Grande in Mexico City and Sikorsky (still in the guise of Galbraith) is destroyed alongside other Sabbat leaders by parties unknown.
    2) The Fourth Sabbat Civil War begins shortly thereafter.

    2021 - The Sabbat has completely dissolved, its upper-echelons largely eliminated, its Ancillae decimated, and the majority of its ranks made up of ravening shovelheads. The sect cedes the majority of its territory to its enemies.

    My only sticking point with the current timeline is that if we accept Beckett and Lucita are attending the 2016 Palla Grande in Mexico City. What happened to the Camarilla conquest? At least according to the V5 timeline on the Wiki, the Camarilla took the city in 2013, which would mean the Palla Grande can't be in 2016. (This said, the wiki, doesn't provide a citation for the 2013 capture and I can't find anything definitive in the V5: Corebook, or the Camarilla, Anarch, and Sabbat Guides.)

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Karos View Post


    I've gone back through my copy of Caine's chosen (admittedly only on my phone during my lunchbreak), I've not been able to find any references. I do vaguely recall it being a longer-term conspiracy now you mention it and the end-matter of the chapter does seem to suggest that. It mentions Maria Sandoza allowing Ajav and Zantasena their little conspiracy, which makes me think in hindsight it would have to be longer.
    Others are right in saying that BJD has a flexible time period covering the time period from Revised to just before V5. So '16 years ago' would seem to refer to the year 2000 (this part is therefore set in 2016, when the book was published).

    The Tlacique do seem a realistic option for who killed Galbraith. But if it was Elimelech, you can always finesse it by saying he was manipulated by the Tlacique. The Tal'mahe'Ra are, after all, obsessed with serving the Ancients, so it may be that some Tlacique monster awakened and convinced him to do it.

    An alternate theory might be that the Order of Moloch, who joined the Tal'mahe'Ra, identified their sibling Shaitan/Nergal's presence and they mobilised someone to kill him and/or his main agent (possibly Elimelech or possibly the Tlacique whose elders might remember and fear Shaitan from his arrival centuries ago).

    Then there's the Inquisition, who might have set Sakorsky up because they knew outing the Regent as an infernalist was likely to trigger a civil war (but they still couldn't let her live). Or perhaps someone high up in the Sabbat struck a treaty with the Tlacique: 'Kill our Regent to have your revenge and rid us of this evil, and you can join us and receive our protection in South America.'

    There are some nice plot convergences there if you look for them. And the fact that most of the lore is served with a big fat dollop of 'unreliable narrator' makes it easier to wing it.
    Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 11-11-2021, 04:21 AM.

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  • Karos
    replied
    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
    Might there not also be something about that in Caine's Chosen: The Black Hand? I know it had material about what Jalan Ajav had been doing with the subsect since the Week of Nightmares.

    I've gone back through my copy of Caine's chosen (admittedly only on my phone during my lunchbreak), I've not been able to find any references. I do vaguely recall it being a longer-term conspiracy now you mention it and the end-matter of the chapter does seem to suggest that. It mentions Maria Sandoza allowing Ajav and Zantasena their little conspiracy, which makes me think in hindsight it would have to be longer.

    Leave a comment:


  • Matt the Bruins fan
    replied
    I favored it being the Tlacique. They'd been sending the Sabbat still-animated heads from vampires they decapitated as warnings, that's just too horrifying a teaser to not follow up on.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post
    I mean they did though...In revised the Tlacique started very specifically assassinating Sabbat Leadership in central and south america in revenge because some of their VERY OLD elders woke up.
    Maybe but it does seem to be an assassination that ties into none of the other larger plots. The Tlacique kill her and then have no role in the Sabbat Civil War or subsequent events. It's also pretty impersonal.

    Leave a comment:

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