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Abilities limit in V20

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  • #16
    And yet in Mage, if you try to boost an attribute to 6, you get Pattern Burn.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Cain Loup-Noir View Post
      As a new player of the V20 i've read the book but i don't understand : as it is said a vampire of the 3th generation can raise it's attributes to 10 permanently, like his Disciplines power. But it cannot affect the abilities, right? I mean firearms at five is a world unique talent, and if a character with more than 5 in Dex use it he is a real beast with a gun but in my head you just cannot go beyond 5 in firearms. A better body to use a gun, ok, but not the abilitie, you just cannot expect a gun to shoot a perfect shot on it's own

      So hypothetically a 3th generation vampire could have 10 in dex + 10 in firearms + 10 in celerity = 30 dices + the damage roll of the weapon..... even werewolf don't have any way to increase their ability beyond 5, get bonus dices thank to gifts yes but never the ability itself. That seems truly overpowered, even for a really low generation vampire
      Rather than discuss the rules, basically the argument presented by the book lore-wise is that after 5 points in a Ability, you reach a level of superhuman ability that human beings are incapable of matching that is automatic to your Kindred self.

      It's already probable that Kindred have more 5 dots in something due to their condition than most humans do to the fact they don't grow older, suffer fatigue, or twitch so a Kindred sniper is automatically better than any human one with sufficient training.

      However, at level 6-10, you are going to be displaying superhuman precision as a function of your Kindred body even if you don't have a Discipline level in it. I'd probably describe it as bullet time-like but that's already how Celerity works.

      "No human could have made that shot" and they're right.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Lynceus View Post
        And yet in Mage, if you try to boost an attribute to 6, you get Pattern Burn.
        Because wizards are squishy.

        Though Mage is a game that highly rewards lateral problem solving over bigger numbers in general. As I noted earlier, giving yourself -3 difficulty and your opponent +3 difficulty on any contested roll (something that's a basic magic effect, and is rarely vulgar because you're just nudging reality around rather than forcing it) is vastly superior to a few dots of Attributes. Pattern Bleed and Permanent Paradox from long term uses of powerful pattern altering effects is also easily circumvented by pre-casting the effect in any number of ways, and just triggering it for a scene instead of constantly having it on (also ensures you don't have to worry about concentration penalties for too much running effects, and makes you less likely to be super obvious to characters with the Awareness trait).

        Mages that are willing to risk short bouts of Paradox issues can also halve their XP costs for raising Attributes up their cap which is generally a lot more pay-off in the end.

        There's also optional rules for getting 6+ Attributes and Abilities at high Arete.

        So, while yes, your statement is true, it's also very oversimplified.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Lynceus View Post
          I have, on occasion, seen Backgrounds above 5, without any explanation for how that remotely works. As for Abilities, I don't know, I would like to think a vampire like Critias, who has been kicking around for 2500 years, could, in fact, have more Academics than any mortal scholar. But without a real explanation for what that means in-universe, you just shrug and realize they have a few more dice which isn't a big deal. Case in point, what is the difference between- an 8th Generation Ventrue with Leadership 5 and Natural Leader (+3 dice on Leadership) and a guy with Leadership 8?

          I remember resources above 5 being how much of a national treasury could be diverted towards your ends.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Taggie View Post
            I remember resources above 5 being how much of a national treasury could be diverted towards your ends.
            No, it is just more numbers.

            Backgrounds above 5 is mostly a Mage rule, introduced in GttT AFAIK. And to be honest it is a rule that makes sense because most BG have hard limits that don't make a lot of sense to what they represent.

            Resources? Even removing the objective numbers it used to give, X20 is still clear in its description that Resources 5 means rich, but not nearly as insanely rich as some people are. It is directly compared to how easy it is to live better than level 3, which is just a comfortable Middle Class, but don't make a dent in the overall economy.

            Above 5 it starts to represent how much your money actually moves. Do you own a big company? Can you affect the movements of an industry, even if at local level? This is far from significantly moving the Treasury of a country, but something like owning a big Hospital chain in your city is already far above 5, and in Mage terms is about 7, IIRC.


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            • #21
              I did some calculations for resources. If you assume a person with 1 dot is making the average minimum wage of the more developed countries, and assume dots of resources multiply themselves over the last dot ( $10, $20, $60, $240 etc) you have money that nicely matches the descriptions of 1,2,3,4,5 and a fair approximation of "normal" wealth divides in "developed" nations and my approach to things is particularly helpful if you ever want to calculate how much you are able to pay if you want dozens of workers with salaries between 1 and 4 dots. However, using this approach, 10 dots of resources doesn't even approach the richest people on earth. A billion has a lot of zeroes.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                However, using this approach, 10 dots of resources doesn't even approach the richest people on earth. A billion has a lot of zeroes.
                That's a nice approach for the first 5 dots, and also highlights the point of having Resources beyond 5. I think above that it must be changed to reflect how much of an impact you have over the local economy instead of how much money you earn. Even because great wealth isn't as tied to income as it is to assets.

                Other BGs have similar problems, although certainly not all of them. How many dots in Domain does a successful Prince have? How many dots in Retainer to have a private platoon? Can any Safe Place (Heaven, Chantry, Freehold, etc) with 5 dots really represent the great fortresses of legend, lore, or just RL rich people?

                Backgrounds from 1 to 5 are excellent for street-level games, because they represent street-level assets. In a chronicle that won't ever leave this level of play, or if it does, it will never have the PCs as direct actors in the great global schemes, 1 to 5 is ok. But the setting does have higher levels of play, and on those the 5-cap BG limit simply doesn't work.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cain Loup-Noir View Post
                  It is true that a rank 3 werewolf gift can simply totally suppress any vampire hability: no healing, no disciplines and no blood magic. With just the 5 correct gifts a single werewolf could hannihilate even Cain himself if he is smart enough to get a 1 vs 1 battle and to use his power (or call a spirits army by ripping the limit between umbra and physical world)

                  Now that i see it i love that difference, in one hand the vampires which can become powerfull enough to rule over the world and destroy entire city, and on the other hand the werewolves which can suppress their power, call an army, and protect their mind and body against almost everything

                  One is overpowered and the other the most dangerous being in the world. So cool!
                  I always liked the idea that the Silent Striders tribe killed Set. However, the result of his dying curse was that they were ripped from their homeland forever.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Lynceus View Post
                    And yet in Mage, if you try to boost an attribute to 6, you get Pattern Burn.
                    If we’re playing by Mage cosmology then Vampires are Thaumivores who pull the quintessence needed to avoid pattern burn/disbelief from the life blood of their victims (which is why humans give so much more than animals… volume is irrelevant, it’s relative quintessence in the pattern and sapients always have more)… and even more quintessence for the more blatant and less mythic thread-y powers they employ.

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