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  • ghoul children? do they grow up

    First off, sorry this topic offends anybody. I’m not trying to bring up anything that might be misconstrued.

    All I want to know is if people who get given vitae will continue to grow even if they do not age.

    I have raised the issue were several players and I’ve gotten different answers every single time. Many people said "growing is different from aging and therefore humans can continue to grow, while still remaining the same 'age'..."

    Others have said "growing is the same as aging for children and ghoul children will stay the exact same size forever once they’re given vitae."

    Can anyone speak to this?

  • #2
    To my understanding, ghouling someone doesn't stop their aging, it just drastically slows it down. A ghoul could live for a long time, centuries, but isn't immortal. A child ghoul will continue to grow and age but the process would take a long time. It might be a century or more before they finally have an adult body.

    Edit: Oops.
    Last edited by AnubisXy; 11-13-2021, 05:08 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Zennis View Post
      Many people said "growing is different from aging and therefore humans can continue to grow, while still remaining the same 'age'..."
      If those people said that in the context of a VtM Ghoul, that's a really strange argument and quite contrived.

      The game never said anything about this, and "growing is different from aging" doesn't make a lot of sense. You're static when you're a Ghoul, tome does not pass for your body.

      Most definitely a child Ghoul wouldn't grow up while Ghouled.

      You can change this if you want for your chronicle, it's not a big deal, but definitely not the intent n the rule.

      Revenants specifically are born sort of as "Ghouls" and still grow, but Revenants age too.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
        If those people said that in the context of a VtM Ghoul, that's a really strange argument and quite contrived.

        The game never said anything about this, and "growing is different from aging" doesn't make a lot of sense. You're static when you're a Ghoul, tome does not pass for your body.

        Most definitely a child Ghoul wouldn't grow up while Ghouled.

        You can change this if you want for your chronicle, it's not a big deal, but definitely not the intent n the rule.

        Revenants specifically are born sort of as "Ghouls" and still grow, but Revenants age too.
        Well in defense of the people in question, one could say that aging is NOT growing. After all, a flesh crafted ghoul can grow.

        You could theoretically continue to grow, if growing was seen as a form of transformation rather than aging.

        Does the expansion and change of the body count as aging? I understand your point of view however, I must say, it strikes me as possible that ghoul bodies could still go through the growth process rather then having growth completely halting due to the ghoul becoming static.

        That being said, I also see where you’re coming from too. the notion of aging and growth in children strikes me as inseparable to some degree as well.
        Last edited by Zennis; 11-13-2021, 04:55 AM.

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        • #5
          I wonder what happens to a ghoul who has been given vitae for 50 years, and is now 65. Would they suddenly begin ageing to catch up with their real ears or would they slowly reach the age of 18 three years down the road?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
            To my understanding, ghouling someone doesn't stop their aging, it just drastically slows it down. A ghoul could live for a long time, centuries, but isn't immortal. A child ghoul will continue to grow and age but the process would take a long time. It might be a century or more before they finally have an adult body.
            I love your interpretation but from what I have read it is definitely factually in accurate.

            Apparently you can feed a ghoul vitae for an unlimited period of time, hundreds of millions of years hypothetically. A ghoul could Even become hundreds of billions of years old according to the rules as written As far as I know

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Zennis View Post

              I love your interpretation but from what I have read it is definitely factually in accurate.

              Apparently you can feed a ghoul vitae for an unlimited period of time, hundreds of millions of years hypothetically. A ghoul could Even become hundreds of billions of years old according to the rules as written As far as I know
              Oh damn you're right! That was one if those house rules my group introduced so long ago I forgot it's not official. 😖

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              • #8
                Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                Oh damn you're right! That was one if those house rules my group introduced so long ago I forgot it's not official. 😖
                I love that, I use it as a house rule as well

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                • #9
                  There was a piece on this exact topic in an early iteration of the V5 Anarch book. As I recall it was removed in subsequent printings, but it was essentially a mother who'd been embraced talking about 'protecting' her children from the SI and how she'd ghouled them to keep them 'safe'.

                  It was presented as a chat forum and one of the responders was horrified. Stating explicitly that children mustn't be given vitae because it halts aging and growth locking them into whatever age and stage of development they were ghouled at. Worse, if you stopped ghouling them to let them grow up they'd age/mature extremely rapidly. (This holds the potential to even kill them depending on how long they've been ghouled.)


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Zennis View Post
                    Well in defense of the people in question, one could say that aging is NOT growing. After all, a flesh crafted ghoul can grow.

                    You could theoretically continue to grow, if growing was seen as a form of transformation rather than aging.
                    Contrived. That's willfully twisting concepts to allow for a reading instead of looking for a logical conclusion.

                    Of course growth is a transformation. But what triggers this transformation? The book is reasonably clear about what ghouling does to your body and to metabolism, child growth is the same fundamental transformation process of an adult getting older.

                    You can't circumvent this by saying that somehow growing up is more like getting fat or receiving surgery than having your body responding to the passage of time. This is too out of nowhere. Comparing the supernatural effect of fleshcrafting with natural growth doesn't make any sense.

                    BUT...

                    If you want to do that for your chronicle, that's another thing entirely.

                    This thread was open as "people said that. Is that true?" And that can only be answered correctly with interpreting canon. Asking it in another way, though: "I want to have a child Ghoul grow up in my Chronicle, how could I explain that?" would be another question, and a valid one.

                    Just think first about the themes you gain and the themes you lose with such a decision. The rules don't change much, but the stories you can tell and how the characters face the Ghoul state change considerably. Think about the specific storyline you'll have and how you want that to play out.

                    And if you do decide to have Ghouled children growing up, you have a few options. It may be that the blood can't completely overcome the innate purity of childhood if that's you theme, so even some other rules may be different. It may be that every Ghoul actually get older, just slower, but children don't feel that so much, the aging slowing down more considerably after a certain age (that's what the Revenants do). Maybe there is something inherently supernatural on growing up that can win even over the power of the blood, in fact you may extend this rule of yours to child vampires if you want.

                    My personal take on it? Generally I treat Ghouling as stopping growth, but if a player asked to change the rule so they can have a given arc in the story, though, I would probably allow. If instead of politely asking a player tried to argue over me that I have to work with this contrived logic, I would just order them to shut up or leave the table.

                    Originally posted by Zennis View Post
                    I wonder what happens to a ghoul who has been given vitae for 50 years, and is now 65. Would they suddenly begin ageing to catch up with their real ears or would they slowly reach the age of 18 three years down the road?
                    According to the book they'll begin to age quicker to catch up, although the book never went into what that entails for child growth.

                    The exact rate depends a lot, though, no it could be as slow as just 3 times the normal ageing rate at this point, at least to begin with. I would make it accelerate each month, though, so as to keep with the idea in the book that older Ghouls catch up quicker, but I wouldn't make a too drastic effect at first because I don't like it for Ghouls.

                    Originally posted by Karos View Post
                    There was a piece on this exact topic in an early iteration of the V5 Anarch book.
                    I have that version. Unfortunately this bit was very badly written. The chat sounds far more [deleted] than horrifying, which as a take on a sensible subject is a horrible thing for the authors to do. Even more unfortunate that it was modeled on how some anti-vax mommy chats really look like, which actually makes life still more horrifying than that piece could be.

                    But all that aside, the concept was solid and the discussion is valid, and the piece in question don't reach a definitive conclusion, either.
                    Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-13-2021, 08:23 PM.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                      I have that version. Unfortunately this bit was very badly written. The chat sounds far more retarded than horrifying, which as a take on a sensible subject is a horrible thing for the authors to do. Even more unfortunate that it was modeled on how some anti-vax mommy chats really look like, which actually makes life still more horrifying than that piece could be.

                      But all that aside, the concept was solid and the discussion is valid, and the piece in question don't reach a definitive conclusion, either.
                      I think the cringe-worthy way it comes across and the modelling it on real issues with anti-vaxxers, is what helps make it horrifying and poignant though. (It makes it truer to life, sad as that may be.)

                      Vampire is meant to explore the darker parts of our world, the Anarchs shouldn't be an exception to that. Freedom has its downside, it has its own problems. I feel that piece served to demonstrate that quite powerfully, but in an understated way that wasn't just screaming 'Anarchs can become fanatics!' at the reader.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Karos View Post
                        I feel that piece served to demonstrate that quite powerfully, but in an understated way that wasn't just screaming 'Anarchs can become fanatics!' at the reader.
                        And that's why I say the concept was solid.

                        But solid or not, the way it was done really rubbed me in the wrong way and not a "horrific" wrong. They just sounded dumb, incredibly dumb, and about to do something horrible not out of desperation or malice, but idiocy.

                        Even real anti-vaxxer mommies are more poignant than that. They're not just stupid, as much as it seems so to us, but they're usually mothers living under pressure, with little attention from proper authorities that could and should help them, reasons to not trust those authorities, and then pushed to a bad decision by the outside intervention of proponents of those ideas that know how to explore their fears and vulnerabilities to craft the anti-vax belief system.

                        If that piece had this level of dept, or at least the indication of, that would be another matter entirely. Instead it isn't the horror of the anti-vaxxer mommy, it is just a parody, and that was not the place for a parody on this subject.


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                        • #13
                          I have to respectfully disagree, at least to some extent. For what was a two-page spread (less when you consider the formatting), I think it does a reasonably good job at conveying the concerns, without weighing down the prose excessively.

                          To address a few things:
                          1)
                          They just sounded dumb, incredibly dumb, and about to do something horrible not out of desperation or malice, but idiocy.
                          Personally, I think that ignorance/idiocy can have its place. Sad as that may be, there is a place for that in these sorts of stories alongside the importance of desperation and/or malice. Simply not knowing and not being able to necessarily express that or to access true and impartial support is poignant.

                          2)
                          Even real anti-vaxxer mommies are more poignant than that. They're not just stupid, as much as it seems so to us,
                          To be sure, they're not just ignorant, there will be other contributing factors, like you say
                          living under pressure, with little attention from proper authorities that could and should help them, reasons to not trust those authorities
                          are all valid and contributing factors, but ignorance can't be entirely dismissed as an element.

                          3)
                          then pushed to a bad decision by the outside intervention of proponents of those ideas that know how to explore their fears and vulnerabilities to craft the anti-vax belief system.
                          There is certainly exploitation too, but that exploitation is in part built off of a lack of information more often than not, were I to wager.

                          4)
                          If that piece had this level of dept, or at least the indication of, that would be another matter entirely. Instead it isn't the horror of the anti-vaxxer mommy, it is just a parody, and that was not the place for a parody on this subject.
                          I think the piece manages to convey at least some of those elements, the tone might not quite connect depending on how far you think they should've gone with the 'chat-speak' as it were. However it does address:

                          1) Distrust/Fear of authorities: The mother asking the question references
                          - 'Nosy social workers'
                          - Having to kill 'an assistant sheriff'

                          2) Living under pressure: It is somewhat implied that all Kindred are innately living under pressure but the piece references:
                          - 'It's not easy to be a parent and a vampire. it's hard to raise human children'
                          - 'we've had to move thrice, and every time it's a huge hassle. that's why I stopped sending my kids to school.'

                          3) Receiving little attention from proper authorities: We can also infer from the issues with the authorities, that they're cut-off from other more conventional support networks. One of the posters responding to the mother also states:
                          - 'In a lot of domains, raising human children is not allowed at all. If the Cam or the Barons catch you doing it, they'll take away your kids. They might even kill you.'

                          Given their hostility to social workers, we can largely rule out mortal support networks. The issues with Barons and the Cam implies the same would be true amongst most Kindred.

                          4) Intervention of proponents: This is depicted with another character stating
                          - 'It's fine don't worry... I give my kids blood all the time'
                          Then praising and encouraging the behaviour by lionising it
                          - 'That's so badass [killing the hound referenced above]... you're the most definitely parent of the year!'


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                            I have that version. Unfortunately this bit was very badly written. The chat sounds far more [deleted] than horrifying, which as a take on a sensible subject is a horrible thing for the authors to do. Even more unfortunate that it was modeled on how some anti-vax mommy chats really look like, which actually makes life still more horrifying than that piece could be.

                            But all that aside, the concept was solid and the discussion is valid, and the piece in question don't reach a definitive conclusion, either.
                            That is an abelist slur and forbidden speech on these forums. Consider this a warning.



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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Karos View Post
                              I have to respectfully disagree, at least to some extent.
                              You have good points, but I think the combination of tone and place wasn't that good. The entire context made it look too much as pointless parody.

                              The exact same two pages in a book specifically about the Thin Bloods and the pressure they live under the Camarilla would have quite another impact. But as a semi-random piece inside the Anarchs book, the problem is that its context is more of showing how the Anarchs are and less of showing how the Thin Bloods are marginalized.

                              Either way, in that particular regard I prefer to wait for other women's impression.

                              CTPhipps, thanks for the editing, I shouldn't had used that word but didn't noticed it slipped, my fault.


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