How many disciplines should there be?

[SetiteFriend]

I must admit I'm curious what preventative measures people would propose to prevent the v5 discipline cap becoming redundant as the 10 get flooded with increasing numbers of alternative/combo powers would produce simular issues to a large number of disciplines.

Planning the game's design? Potence hasn't gotten a single extra power since release for example. It's not really an apt comparison anyway, having extra options to choose from isn't bad, problem is when it gets excessive and redundant, this way you don't need 5+ powers just to have an interesting one.

Cutting down on powers isn't the only benefit as well, its about giving more player options, this way you don't have super specific disciplines that are barely used. By putting those powers at standard disciplines, it opens up a lot of option for player characters to play different concepts more easily without having to play a bloodline that only exists to justify its silly discipline.

[Ragged Robin]

Planning the game's design? Potence hasn't gotten a single extra power since release for example. It's not really an apt comparison anyway, having extra options to choose from isn't bad, problem is when it gets excessive and redundant, this way you don't need 5+ powers just to have an interesting one.

Cutting down on powers isn't the only benefit as well, its about giving more player options, this way you don't have super specific disciplines that are barely used. By putting those powers at standard disciplines, it opens up a lot of option for player characters to play different concepts more easily without having to play a bloodline that only exists to justify its silly discipline.

That's a valid reply but you don't seem on the expand the powers of the 10 camp with combo powers and multiple choices per level my question is more directed at them.

[SetiteFriend]

I see.

On the subject of multiple choices per level, it's a hard thing to balance. I think it shouldn't be something immediately available, but some long term goal. Being able to purchase additional powers after rank 5 at standard costs works more or less, though I'd like to tie it to Blood Potency as well (Maybe up to half your blood potency?). It'd be less efficient than usual as you don't gain extra dots, but that would give it more balance. Its generally the rule I use when making SPCs, so that only the few true elders (and Methuseleahs if I ever use one) get extra powers.

[Ragged Robin]

Thinking on it the ideal of the 10 disciplines speaks more to modern societies subconscious desire to return to the idealised simpler states of play rather than any inherent merit. You may as well argue for only roughly 4 disciplines- morphic, mental, physical, mystical and cram all the powers into that to reach the logical conclusion.

[monteparnas]

Planning the game's design? Potence hasn't gotten a single extra power since release for example. It's not really an apt comparison anyway, having extra options to choose from isn't bad, problem is when it gets excessive and redundant, this way you don't need 5+ powers just to have an interesting one.

Cutting down on powers isn't the only benefit as well, its about giving more player options, this way you don't have super specific disciplines that are barely used. By putting those powers at standard disciplines, it opens up a lot of option for player characters to play different concepts more easily without having to play a bloodline that only exists to justify its silly discipline.

1 - Planning design won't change the simple fact that new powers will be designed. Although I do agree that V5's method reduces the need for making them in packets of 5, which is a plus;

2 - There is certainly some redundancy in pre-V5 Disciplines due to the 5-pack aspect, but I hardly think they're excessive. How you define it? At no point the game presses you into using more than the 10 standard, 12 if you want heavy Sabbat presence. Everything else is dependent on you wanting to use their far more specific groups to begin with;

3 - Having more player options to build individual versions of a Discipline is certainly a plus. But talking about excess from one method while defending another that effectively and on design increases the amount of powers at the players' disposal on a regular basis is complicated. By pre-V5 you have no need to allow more than 10 discipline, to a total of 50 structured powers. By V5 you have at least twice as much powers, with more intricate combinations;

4 - No bloodline to my knowledge exists solely to justify a Discipline. Although I certainly can't say they share the same quality of writing, applicability on play or anything else, every bloodlne was designed on its own merits and their own Disciplines exist to better represent their particularities instead of them existing for the Discipline's sake.

You have fair points about this take on Disciplines over others, but keep your arguments from spilling into pure offense against other editions.

As for my opinion on taking more powers of the same level in a Discipline in V5, I don't think any extra requisite should be necessary. Do it at the normal price for that level, doing so doesn't increase your dot rating, the end. This isn't as big a deal as it seems.

[SetiteFriend]

4 - No bloodline to my knowledge exists solely to justify a Discipline. Although I certainly can't say they share the same quality of writing, applicability on play or anything else, every bloodlne was designed on its own merits and their own Disciplines exist to better represent their particularities instead of them existing for the Discipline's sake.

You have fair points about this take on Disciplines over others, but keep your arguments from spilling into pure offense against other editions.

My general distaste for many bloodlines did slip through. But some bloodlines do feel really hollow if you take their discipline away. The Trujah are the low hanging fruit, but are the prime example, without Temporis they are a 180 on the Brujah Stereotype. Only difference between them and the main clan being that they are solely nerds while the main clan has variety. Which I think weakens the main Brujah clan a lot.

Daughters of Cacophony is another, remove their singing discipline and they are Toreadors that are focused solely on singing or Malkavians whose bane is Magic Tinnitus.

As for my opinion on taking more powers of the same level in a Discipline in V5, I don't think any extra requisite should be necessary. Do it at the normal price for that level, doing so doesn't increase your dot rating, the end. This isn't as big a deal as it seems.

Its not extremely strong in general, but some disciplines get really stronger, Dominate, Obfuscate and Fortitude especially.

[nothing]

Oh? Explain how this works?

No.

Won't let me post with less than 10 words, so... The Clan Tremere were a poor and misguided attempt on Rein•Hagen's part to either cross-pollinate players between Vampire and Ars Magica, or an unnecessary nod to his time on the latter. The only tenuous mythological link to "vampire wizards" is a mention that Dracula studied at the Scholomance, but even that was a theory by the character of Van Helsing. And blood magic should be about blood - not flinging fireballs, or budget telekinesis, or wannbe-Obtenebration by a bunch of poor-mans' Raistlins. The game would only have benefited from the omission of the Tremere in its initial development.

[nothing]

I am guessing the three physical disciplines are in the 5, just curious what the other two are.

No, the physical Disciplines can be modeled by reducing difficulty, granting automatic successes, and so on. Arguably, spending Blood to increase physical traits is just as good compared to any of the physical Disciplines. There should be:

•Protean (encompassing Vicissitude, Serpentis, really any Discipline that transfigures one's self)
•Dominate (and all related mental trickery like Dementation, Obfuscate, the first few levels of Chimerstry (and the later levels shouldn't even be allowed, because where the hell does spontaneous origination of material goods fall in vampire myth?) Melpominee - which is just Dementation with singing; etc.)
•Auspex
•Animalism
•Presence if you have to, even though it's really just more Charisma dice

Cheers!

[CTPhipps]

No. Won't let me post with less than 10 words, so... The Clan Tremere are a poor and misguided attempt on Rein•Hagen's part to either cross-pollinate players between Vampire and Ars Magica, or an unnecessary nod to his time on the latter. The only tenuous mythological link to "vampire wizards" is a mention that Dracula studied at the Scholomance, but even that was a theory by the character of Van Helsing. And blood magic should be about blood - not flinging fireballs, or budget telekinesis, or wannbe-Obtenebration by a bunch of poor-mans' Raistlins. The game would only have benefited from the omission of the Tremere in its initial development.

Please don't post with most of your text invisible.

[AnubisXy]

Please don't post with most of your text invisible.

Most? So does that mean it's okay to post with all of the text invisible? :P

[monteparnas]

AnubisXy probably not.

[monteparnas]

My general distaste for many bloodlines did slip through.

I understand that and have my own opinions on them, too. But even those are not a case of being bad because they exist exist for the Disciplines. It is just that their concepts are as... arguable... as it gets on their own.

To take on those examples, the Trujah exist first and foremost to be this big secret, as a part of the whole True Black Hand shenanigans. Temporis is pretty much an afterthought to that. I'm not very fond of them either, although I learned to accept and use them.

And the Daughters, they always seemed to me quite literally an exercise on bloodline creation, a sample of what you can make with the concept to have a new option in your game without changing many things. They're like vanilla for bloodlines, the most neutral use of the concept possible.

Its not extremely strong in general, but some disciplines get really stronger, Dominate, Obfuscate and Fortitude especially.

I admit I would have to look at them more thoroughly to be sure, but it could be the case on giving the problem ones a little more restriction instead of doing that to every Discipline.

[MyWifeIsScary]

The Blood Brothers, Gargoyles, Lamia, Samedi, Maeghar and Baali are all fucking awesome. (if you ignore a few shitty texts)
Most are decent. I quite like the variants of the big clans that don't stand apart too much. Lineage should be more than just how many people separate you from an antideluvian.

The Ahrimanes, TrBr, Evil angles or whatever, Kiasyd... there's more than a few iffy things there.

A Vampire wrapped around their specialist discipline isn't a problem. Several of the Big Clans frequently have members than do that, and it' not a problem. Thaumaturgy, Vicissitude, Obtenebration, Protean, Obfuscate...
Bloodline are a nice curveball for when your players have slain their 9th Ventrue.

[Ragged Robin]

Won't let me post with less than 10 words, so... The Clan Tremere were a poor and misguided attempt on Rein•Hagen's part to either cross-pollinate players between Vampire and Ars Magica, or an unnecessary nod to his time on the latter. The only tenuous mythological link to "vampire wizards" is a mention that Dracula studied at the Scholomance, but even that was a theory by the character of Van Helsing. And blood magic should be about blood - not flinging fireballs, or budget telekinesis, or wannbe-Obtenebration by a bunch of poor-mans' Raistlins. The game would only have benefited from the omission of the Tremere in its initial development.

That isn't a very good line of reasoning. Vampires and quasi vampires have a long historical links with magic in folklore of many culture. To.the point theirs quite a lot of overlap between witchcraft and vampirism is slacks folklore. While hermetic magic isn't really linked with then, the idea of vampires has a lot of overlap with taboo magics. So dracula is hardly the only precedence

As for 'Blood magic' its important to distinguish between fuel vs effect. While using blood as a method to produce effects is historically common it doesn't typically manifest itself as the blood physically doing something that's a pretty new idea. So it's perfectly logical to use the blood 'mana' to produce a fireball. Afterall it'd be silly if mages could only fire loafs of bread or apple juice from their hands

Finally the Tremere are a popular clan with a rich and interesting history which people enjoy playing. That alone justifies them.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Realtalk:
I think Tremere have magic the way they do because the creators were interested in Hermeticism and the idea that we're all imperfect beings standing below some divine truth, waiting for the day where we can improve ourselves and climb back into the light and become one with The Almighty/TheUniverse/WhatThePlayeresWant. Vampires haven't chosen to be damned, so they have just as much a shot at enlightenment as ordinary folk. Hermetic magic is essentially an exercise in self improvement that isn't denied to vampires because... vampires do still have souls.
Settites later reinforce this with Gnosticism. They're like the Anti-Tremere with very similar ideas and a very different perspective.


Cutting the magic out would shit on what Vampire's all about.