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  • MyWifeIsScary
    started a topic How many disciplines should there be?

    How many disciplines should there be?

    Different books give us different ideas. From the 10 in V5 to the wild lists of prior editions with potentially an infinite amount of unique inceptor disciplines. How do you group/merge disciplines, or have you written a long list of strange powers for your thinbloods.

    My list

    Animalism
    Auspex (Some of Mytherceria is a variant one can learn by hunting changelings)
    Celerity
    Dominate
    Fortitude
    Obfuscate
    Potence
    Presence

    Thaumaturgy (Including most other types of sorcery. many inceptor disciplines are unknowingly thaumaturgy. Bardo is here)
    Protean (Serpentis, Thanatosis and Visceraticka are Variants, as are most inceptor disciplines. Protean doesn't have paths, vampires can learn abilities out of order so long as it's of appropriate level.)

    Chimestry
    Countermagic
    Dark Thaumaturgy (which is added upon standard thaumaturgy, up to the limit of generational maximums. So someone with 2 dots of Thaum and 1 dot of DT is a level 3 thaumaturge)
    Flight
    That singing one.
    Mortis (Just a better name for necromancy)
    Obtenebration
    Quietus
    Valeren (diamonion, Obeah)
    Vicissitude (Sanguinis is a path, also sanguinis can be used with anyone you share a bond with that also knows the discipline. Join us, Join us, Join us.)
    "Spirit mastery" (koldunic sorcery: ogham is rituals)

    Things I'm on the fence about: Dementation. As much as it's linked to Dominate, it's far too diffferent. As much as I like passion I think Dominate malks are better. It would make a great thaumaturgy path... but I don't think malks should be challenging the Tremere and learning magic is just a different vibe to ordinary disciplines, it's quite unfitting)
    Things that mostly probably shouldn't exist: Abombwe (fold into abyss mysticism?), Spiritus (Fold into Valeren/Diamonion or Thaumaturgy?) Temporis (Thaumaturgy throw in?)

  • SetiteFriend
    replied
    Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
    Looking at the discipline lineup of the 14 clans, I'm seeing more discipline overlap than in previous editions, although not as dramatic as anticipated.
    How are people approaching the fact a lot of clans could in theory use formerly unique powers? I'm probably going to put a hard no on having them unless tutored by the clan in question.
    I allow it. I don't think anything is gained by making a homebrew ruling like that, besides limiting players options and hamfistedly going back to previous editions. Players usually take powers that fit their characters anyway in my experience, and there isn't any power that I find considerably stronger than the rest to consider power gaming, especially when you take into account that there are a limited number of powers you can pick.

    Amalgams that are in-Clan for other Clans besides the "intended" ones are Chimerstry for the Ministry, which I think is a perfect fit, as cult leaders conjuring illusions to mislead a crowd is just on point, and the Salubri ones, which I don't think anyone would willingly pick unless it made a lot of sense for their character.

    As for the rest, they are already paying out of clan costs, and as I said before, the powers aren't so much stronger that they warrant additional limitation.

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  • Ignithas
    replied
    If there is a really good reason, I'd allow it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ragged Robin
    replied
    Looking at the discipline lineup of the 14 clans, I'm seeing more discipline overlap than in previous editions, although not as dramatic as anticipated.
    How are people approaching the fact a lot of clans could in theory use formerly unique powers? I'm probably going to put a hard no on having them unless tutored by the clan in question.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aleph
    replied
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

    That's true. On the other hand, it does result in vampires with a theme. It allows you to make a Ventrue who feels like an icy statue of gods/kings, and a Gangrel who feels like an utter savage revealing in pain, even his own.

    Going into other disciplines, it allows you to create a Malkavian who is haunted by visions of the future, and a Tremere who casually sees through the inferior parlor tricks of those trying to hide or sneak up on him via his mastery of enlightened awareness.

    V5 doesn't really tie the options with Clans, but with Disciplines, ┬┐doesn't it?. In general I think more choice it's better than less choice, but I'm not sure how I feel about non-Malkavian Auspex users having the same access to the *same* oracular power that Malkavians would have. Especialy if we want it to represent a general "theme": Haunted by visions of the future for the Malkavian, sure, but if I'm not mistaken any vampire with Auspex can buy that ... It could result in the opposite of what you describe: vampires w/o such general themes (each vampire being a singular, unique, creature)

    Leave a comment:


  • CajunKhan
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    I'm not allowed to make this a V5 bashing thread but V5's disciplines are not well defined they're loose collections of powers held together by theme. V1 Fortitude negates more and more damage, That's well defined. V5 fortitude is anything from "you have more health" to "you ignore one attack per turn" to "insults upset you less" which is... less cohesive. I'll grant that V5 does a relatively decent job with Presence, but Presence has always been the messy kid in vampire.

    ...and I really hate picking powers, at least how V5 does it.. V5 offers more choices, but as you can only have 5 powers in a discipline, every choice locks you off from another choice. That's very stressful. A linear 1-5 system with some powers having options to buy alternative powers you didn't get is elegant in it's simplicity; There's no overchoice, there's no locking yourself out of a power. When I buy a power in V20, I'm only sacrificing XP and delaying the acquisition of other options. When I buy a power in V5, I need to think deeply about the "build" that I want because there's a hard cap on what I can get.
    That's true. On the other hand, it does result in vampires with a theme. It allows you to make a Ventrue who feels like an icy statue of gods/kings, and a Gangrel who feels like an utter savage revealing in pain, even his own.

    Going into other disciplines, it allows you to create a Malkavian who is haunted by visions of the future, and a Tremere who casually sees through the inferior parlor tricks of those trying to hide or sneak up on him via his mastery of enlightened awareness.

    Leave a comment:


  • monteparnas
    replied
    Being limited to 1 or 2 dots but have a lessened cost to buy more powers on the same Discipline (instead of an inability to do so like current RAW) would be interesting. Another option would be to have Merits or whatnot that let them change parameters for a Discipline at a cost, a la Metamagic Feats. Both solutions would play on TB being weaker, but stranger.

    I don't think a cap on Disciplines is needed, though, as long as their use of them have other attached effects to fulfill this theme. The use of Disciplines could have a greater cost or Side Effects the Thin Blood can't suppress. As long as it makes the decision to use them harder and the effects stranger for other vampires and less showy for witnesses, I'm good with it, even if the result isn't really less powerful.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spencer from The Hills
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    In most cases, the first dot of any discipline is something broadly applicable; easy to use, minimal consequences, with a lot of utility. while later powers have a narrower scope or consequences for using them (Which could be simple like costing more blood or willpower or something less concrete like being flagrant masquerade violations) There are of course some glaring exceptions to this (obfuscate 1, Chimistry, Temporis thinking it's a Sphere) but that's something most people think is a flaw.

    Also like, Thin bloods had the ability to obtain 4/3 dots of disciplines (depending on whether they were 14th/15th generation) before the last edition changed the sheets.
    I referred back to the V5 core and only two or three disciplines have that problem when limited to one dot. While one more die in charisma rolls or the health track is rather meagre, it is likely to come into a lot of situations. And I was assuming that each new 1st dot of a discipline would cost 7xp (it might even be 6xp if they count as Caitiff), rather than the 10 of V<5, so lateral discipline development could cost more xp than it's worth, even without the option of linear development.

    Based on V<5 RAW, thin-bloods still have a lot of room to specialise in chosen disciplines, so there's less incentive to be a jack of all trades than if they were limited to 1 dot.

    Leave a comment:


  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
    If thin-bloods had to invest in disciplines, but were capped at 1, I expect that a lot of player characters would collect which ever ones have useful 1 dot powers that don't scale with the discipline, so they'd end up being the same.
    In most cases, the first dot of any discipline is something broadly applicable; easy to use, minimal consequences, with a lot of utility. while later powers have a narrower scope or consequences for using them (Which could be simple like costing more blood or willpower or something less concrete like being flagrant masquerade violations) There are of course some glaring exceptions to this (obfuscate 1, Chimistry, Temporis thinking it's a Sphere) but that's something most people think is a flaw.

    Also like, Thin bloods had the ability to obtain 4/3 dots of disciplines (depending on whether they were 14th/15th generation) before the last edition changed the sheets.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spencer from The Hills
    replied
    If thin-bloods had to invest in disciplines, but were capped at 1, I expect that a lot of player characters would collect which ever ones have useful 1 dot powers that don't scale with the discipline, so they'd end up being the same.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ragged Robin
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    TBA doesn't make sense within the context of the WoD and as a gameplay element it causes more problems than it solves, so it really shouldn't exist

    trying to keep an open mind: Obtenebration wouldn't be a terrible path for necromancy. But the way oblivion's done is so bad that it's best ignored entirely.
    Thin Blood alchemy isn't very good and doesn't really mesh well with the thematic traits of thin bloods
    Personally I'd just put some of the unique powers into blood sorcery and put a cap on disciplines at 1 with some perks. You want to play a crappy vampire then play a crappy vampire, because that's something I can see as interesting.

    Then again I havnt seen anyone want to play a thin blood since 2007 so I'm curious how popular a choice they really are

    Leave a comment:


  • SetiteFriend
    replied
    3 in-clans work really well, and getting an out of clan isn't that big of a deal unless you want to level it really high. Its why the couple merits in V5 that allow you to get an extra in-clan are only a good investment once you level a discipline to 4.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Thin Blood alchemy.

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  • Ignithas
    replied
    What does TBA mean in this context?

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    TBA doesn't make sense within the context of the WoD and as a gameplay element it causes more problems than it solves, so it really shouldn't exist

    trying to keep an open mind: Obtenebration wouldn't be a terrible path for necromancy. But the way oblivion's done is so bad that it's best ignored entirely.

    Leave a comment:

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