[V5] Fate of Sabbat luminaries

[CTPhipps]

The Sabbat would implode if the Roads came back, as would the Cam and Anarchs, because the Paths fil that role, they are Sects and cults and socially networks, between them and the Clan you don't need overaching international organisations, and you don't need the Cults of the Blood Gods.

Honestly, a missed opportunity of V5 is not giving rules for Paths as ways of doing the new Humanity system. I think the Blood Cults would have been perfect as opportunities for introducing Roads into the Modern Nights.

A Road of Mithras seems like a no-brainer.

[Taggie]

I always wondered how you differentiated Roads and Paths in your games. To me, in my games, they're greatly distinct. The Roads are millennia old religions and ways of life that have been perfected through time as well as the influence of their specific human cultures. They are a lot more "natural" than the Sabbat Paths of Enlightenment that are often either the Poor Man's Substitute for the original Roads that have been altered to benefit the Sabbat or they are completely made up versions. There are some Sabbat who "fill in the gaps" and make superior versions of the Paths that they can reach the top of but there's a distinct different in my games.

This has some support in canon as the Path of Caine is the Poor Man's version of the historical Banu Haqim Road of Blood. We also see how radically the Paths are from their Road versions.

Mind you, I've run campaigns of Sabbat archaeology where they try to recover the "true" Roads of Enlightenment because the modern ones are so corrupted. Sort of like trying to get the Dead Sea Scrolls and original writings of [strike]Jesus[/strike] Caine.

Depends on the Road/Path, because some 'Paths of the Roads' fit perfectly with Sabbat Paths (they might not officially, but Path of Screams or Path of Sin of the Road of Sin can hang out in the Sabbat without issue, as an example) Sabbat Paths are quick and dirty politicised versions of the 'Paths of the Roads', Honorable Accord is Chivalry, Caine is Blood (kinda, that one is more complicated and mixed with the Cainite Heresy, or the bits that the Amici Noctis liked anyway) but basically they are the versions you can induct people into quickly at good enough not to wassail levels, while still having enough at the higher end to interest the Post Humanists, like the Sunday school theology into the denominations college, as opposed to actual comparative theology doctorates, (an inclined Elder in DA can be expected to know his Road and all of it's Paths, as well as have a working knowledge of at least the basics of the other Roads, except the clan/region specific ones, a Sabbat elder able to do that is rare, they might know the names of the Sabbat Paths, but only know their own and maybe the basics of the big three [ PatIV, DatS, Caine]) but then I have Sabbat elders still being on Roads for the most part.

The Sabbat would implode if the Roads came back, as would the Cam and Anarchs, because the Paths fil that role, they are Sects and cults and socially networks, between them and the Clan you don't need overaching international organisations, and you don't need the Cults of the Blood Gods.

[CTPhipps]

1) I prefer the 2e and DA approach to Paths/Roads, but to each their own.

I always wondered how you differentiated Roads and Paths in your games. To me, in my games, they're greatly distinct. The Roads are millennia old religions and ways of life that have been perfected through time as well as the influence of their specific human cultures. They are a lot more "natural" than the Sabbat Paths of Enlightenment that are often either the Poor Man's Substitute for the original Roads that have been altered to benefit the Sabbat or they are completely made up versions. There are some Sabbat who "fill in the gaps" and make superior versions of the Paths that they can reach the top of but there's a distinct different in my games.

This has some support in canon as the Path of Caine is the Poor Man's version of the historical Banu Haqim Road of Blood. We also see how radically the Paths are from their Road versions.

Mind you, I've run campaigns of Sabbat archaeology where they try to recover the "true" Roads of Enlightenment because the modern ones are so corrupted. Sort of like trying to get the Dead Sea Scrolls and original writings of [strike]Jesus[/strike] Caine.

[Taggie]

Hard disagree on both.

1. Part of what makes the Sabbat appealing to me is the fact that they're trying very hard to become Nieztschean supermen and post-human philosopher kings. It's INTERESTING, though, because only like 10% of people in the Sabbat are even capanle of understanding the question. It's a full-on Plato's the Cave situation for me. What makes it cool is the fact that if you explained the Paths to a typical recruit for 150 years, he STILL WOULDN'T GET IT. So you have these genius noble demons and these pathetic assholes and the tension between them makes Sabbat games really entertaining. Because simply put: the majority of vampires are not suitable for immortality let alone Sabbat immortality.

Which isn't saying the inhumanity and aliennes is bad. It's just that it should be rare because it's cool.

2. I really hate this because I loved BJD having Vykos free himself from the Dracon and finally end his association with Michael as well as the insanity of the Dream. It seems bioth he and Lucita essentially became their slave masters.

1) I prefer the 2e and DA approach to Paths/Roads, but to each their own.

2) Even Priscii and Regents quake when Methuselahs walk, especially the ones who remember the birth of civilization. Or it's a mark of respect for the price Vykos paid to be free.

[CTPhipps]

I totally agree with your analysis of the Sabbat and the vampiric condition in point 1. That’s exactly how I see them.

Thanx.

Its a great source of black comedy for me that the Sabbat can best be defined as some of the greatest minds in the universe surrounded by idiots.

There's Doctor Doom and Magneto next to Bullseye, Rhino, and Deadpool.

[Amethyst]

Hard disagree on both.

1. Part of what makes the Sabbat appealing to me is the fact that they're trying very hard to become Nieztschean supermen and post-human philosopher kings. It's INTERESTING, though, because only like 10% of people in the Sabbat are even capanle of understanding the question. It's a full-on Plato's the Cave situation for me. What makes it cool is the fact that if you explained the Paths to a typical recruit for 150 years, he STILL WOULDN'T GET IT. So you have these genius noble demons and these pathetic assholes and the tension between them makes Sabbat games really entertaining. Because simply put: the majority of vampires are not suitable for immortality let alone Sabbat immortality.

Which isn't saying the inhumanity and aliennes is bad. It's just that it should be rare because it's cool.

2. I really hate this because I loved BJD having Vykos free himself from the Dracon and finally end his association with Michael as well as the insanity of the Dream. It seems bioth he and Lucita essentially became their slave masters.

I totally agree with your analysis of the Sabbat and the vampiric condition in point 1. That’s exactly how I see them.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

2. I really hate this because I loved BJD having Vykos free himself from the Dracon and finally end his association with Michael as well as the insanity of the Dream. It seems bioth he and Lucita essentially became their slave masters.

I wonder if the story about Vykos (being impregnated by the Eldest with the Dracon) got out. And so people view Vykos and her suffering, as a kind of martyrdom.

[CTPhipps]

Hard disagree, what's appealing about them is inhumanity, bizarre philosophy, fanaticism and the schismatic politics. Do agree that no one should win the jyhad tho, cam vs sabbat is the core conflict imho.

As to why Vykos is the Marty.. Micheal is stirring, and rebuilding his trinity..so may have something to do with it, it could also to do with the aftermath of The Dracons rise

Hard disagree on both.

1. Part of what makes the Sabbat appealing to me is the fact that they're trying very hard to become Nieztschean supermen and post-human philosopher kings. It's INTERESTING, though, because only like 10% of people in the Sabbat are even capanle of understanding the question. It's a full-on Plato's the Cave situation for me. What makes it cool is the fact that if you explained the Paths to a typical recruit for 150 years, he STILL WOULDN'T GET IT. So you have these genius noble demons and these pathetic assholes and the tension between them makes Sabbat games really entertaining. Because simply put: the majority of vampires are not suitable for immortality let alone Sabbat immortality.

Which isn't saying the inhumanity and aliennes is bad. It's just that it should be rare because it's cool.

2. I really hate this because I loved BJD having Vykos free himself from the Dracon and finally end his association with Michael as well as the insanity of the Dream. It seems bioth he and Lucita essentially became their slave masters.

[Taggie]

I love the Sabbat but I love them because they're a trashfire. If you have the Sabbat win, you lose what's appealing about them.

Hard disagree, what's appealing about them is inhumanity, bizarre philosophy, fanaticism and the schismatic politics. Do agree that no one should win the jyhad tho, cam vs sabbat is the core conflict imho.

As to why Vykos is the Marty.. Micheal is stirring, and rebuilding his trinity..so may have something to do with it, it could also to do with the aftermath of The Dracons rise

[CTPhipps]

Where is Vykos called the Martyr?

Page 74.

For example, Archbishop Lucita of Madrid is Lasombra antitribu and Sascha Vykos, the martyr of Caine, is Tzimisce antitribu.

Where in TBH does it say Tally killed Lucita?

Page 81

Complicating matters, certain noteworthy Kindred claim that Lucita has met the final death – but if that’s true, who are her packmates following?

It was CBN where Talley was said to have killed Lucita.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

Where is Vykos called the Martyr?

Where in TBH does it say Tally killed Lucita?

[CTPhipps]

My headcanon: they all survived and slaughtered the Camarilla. The supposed canon given in V5 is the dying dream of various Camarilla elders as their diablerized souls are digested in the guts of various Sabbat warriors.

I love the Sabbat but I love them because they're a trashfire. If you have the Sabbat win, you lose what's appealing about them.

[CajunKhan]

My headcanon: they all survived and slaughtered the Camarilla. The supposed canon given in V5 is the dying dream of various Camarilla elders as their diablerized souls are digested in the guts of various Sabbat warriors.

[CTPhipps]

Lucita: allegedly survived as Archbishop of Madrid; what has happened of her bid to regency?

They've repeated in CBN and TBH that Talley apparently killed Lucita and more or less said the Lucita in Madrid is an imposter.

So they've clearly got something planned there.

Vykos: has given birth to the Dracon, allegedly in the Middle East; why is he named Martyr, now?

Isn't the Angel of Caine, Vykos?