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Vicissitude and Nosferatu

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  • #31
    In my games the nosferatu founder was narcisus and his curse is called the lonely curse manifesting in all Nosferatu having two traits that reveal their supernatural nature: Pemanent fangs and pallor, red shining eyes and claws, lack of shadow and reflection, just an aura that makes people dislike you, being a putrid corpse and animal features etc... Each nosferatu is unique and they don´t have to be ugly just "supernatural".

    They also loss one point of aparence when embraced so the average become ugos


    https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
      In my games the nosferatu founder was narcisus and his curse is called the lonely curse manifesting in all Nosferatu having two traits that reveal their supernatural nature: Pemanent fangs and pallor, red shining eyes and claws, lack of shadow and reflection, just an aura that makes people dislike you, being a putrid corpse and animal features etc... Each nosferatu is unique and they don´t have to be ugly just "supernatural".

      They also loss one point of aparence when embraced so the average become ugos

      I know it's your house rule but do you saddle other clans with ten points of flaws? If not then you're doing the exact sort of thing I was talking about - making Nosferatu far harder to play than other clans

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      • #33
        My first instinct would be to rule that the fleshcrafting involuntarily "heals" slowly (and uses up vitae) as if it were aggravated damage, but having it reverse in one day while the Nosferatu sleeps is a better way of preventing an Antitribu who's doing their ow fleshcrafting from effortlessly cheating it.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
          Two questions, two opposite approach to the same problem, Nosferatu ugliness.

          1- can Vicissitude change a Nosferatu from "loathsome inhuman" to "cool inhuman"? Because one thing is being Appearance 0 and look like a deformed corpse, another is Appearance 0 and look like a dragon or a pit fiend.

          2- can Vicissitude change a Nosferatu from inhuman to "extremely ugly human"? Like heavily scarred, disfigured , appearance 0 but still human.

          ---

          And since we are here, there are very realistic masks in lattice and silicon. Plus colored lenses.
          And since vampires have no need for perspiration, the whole body could be sealed in some kind of fake skin made of silicon to stop the stench from coming out.

          Could it work?
          1. Yes, for a single night, then the Nos reverts to his usual hideous self
          2. Yes, but still for a single night then changes revert.

          The nature of the Nosferatu's curse cannot be broken by simply gaining a few dots in Vicissitude, sorry.

          That said... There are ways to change Nosferatu's appearances for a longer period, they are called "demonic pacts". In Ashen Cults there's a Nosferatu who did just such thing to regain the beautiful visage he lost when he was embraced. As usual with such arrangements there are far wider implications than just being supernaturally ugly on the outside though...
          Last edited by Haquim; 12-25-2021, 07:33 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Dogstar View Post
            One of the irritating things about VtM is player attitude towards Nosferatu. Appearance 0 isn't that big of a deal by the rules but the text that goes with it is completely overblown to such an extent that players start making up house rules and penalties that aren't necessary - like ' Appearance 0 means automatic failure on all such checks.', and that's not fair on players that want to be Nosferatu or even good storytelling frankly.

            Nosferatu don't have a problem with social skills because most social rolls are based on Charisma or Manipulation and not Appearance (V20). Which to my mind tells me that if the mechanics aren't that bad then it's the writing that's the problem.
            Being that ugly means you are a walking Masquerade breach. That IS a pretty big deal in VtM.
            In kindred circles you might be accepted but by canon socially most clans look down on the lepers (until the lepers start outing their dirty laundry at least...).

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            • #36
              Funny idea...

              could the Curse of Nosferatu actually "beautify" ( make slightly less horrible ) a mortal that is uttterly devastated by advanced leprosy AND is also dying for the plague?

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              • #37
                Since Attributes don't enter into negative integers, no. Either your super-ill mortal still qualifies as Appearance 1 or they just get a new flavour of Appearance 0 to replace the old.

                Or they don't change at all. IIRC it may have been mentioned in Transylvania by Night that Marusca, childe of Zelios, had horrible injuries that she endured pre-Embrace somewhat incorporated into her monstrous appearance as a Nosferatu.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
                  Funny idea...

                  could the Curse of Nosferatu actually "beautify" ( make slightly less horrible ) a mortal that is uttterly devastated by advanced leprosy AND is also dying for the plague?
                  If you are horribly disfigured (appearance 0) to start with, the curse "just" keeps you there. It might even make you look uglier but it doesn't really matter in practical terms as most people around you would find you abhorrent anyway.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Haquim View Post
                    Being that ugly means you are a walking Masquerade breach. That IS a pretty big deal in VtM.
                    In kindred circles you might be accepted but by canon socially most clans look down on the lepers (until the lepers start outing their dirty laundry at least...).

                    I think you've made a perfect example of the sort of thing I'm talking about - over-emphasising the lore like this makes playing Nosferatu massively more difficult than any other clan

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Haquim View Post
                      Being that ugly means you are a walking Masquerade breach. That IS a pretty big deal in VtM.
                      In kindred circles you might be accepted but by canon socially most clans look down on the lepers (until the lepers start outing their dirty laundry at least...).
                      I have to agree with Dogstar here. The Nos have already a pretty hard weakness to use in play without heavily relying on Obfuscate, and no other clan has so thoroughly to rely on a Discipline to just co-exist with their weaknesses. Making it even more intense to follow the spirit of the lore to its fullest just isn't helping.

                      Most clans loathe the lepers, but not out of added supernatural intensity to their ugliness. I do agree that unmaking the weakness should be impossible in a permanent basis, but for the weakness effect RAW is more than enough and actually too much, but it is what it is. An Appearance of 0 is hard, but it doesn't affect the other (more important, thanks to badly written system) social attributes. And keeping the Masquerade is harder, but can be done with a trench coat.

                      They're ugly. Intensely ugly, yes, but that's it. Even the idea that it is Masquerade Breaching by itself is just stupid, because intensely ugly people do exist and live normal lives, including relatively normal social lives. People scarred by accidents or disfiguring diseases, extreme birth deformities, or just that went through many body modifications exist, are off-putting, but otherwise have family, friends, jobs, marry and all that. Not always easy, but only because humans are jerks. Same reason why most clans loathe the Nosferatu.


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                      • #41
                        How Ugly are nosferatu. How ugly is appearance 0/1, or even 2. 2 is, allegedly, normal, but the average person is pretty gross. (They're also physically unfit and let's not get into socials/mentals)

                        There are plenty of unfortunate people that hurt to look at but they're obviously human.


                        Also this dude looks decisively... not ugly. Could make better fashion choices though.


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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Dogstar View Post


                          I think you've made a perfect example of the sort of thing I'm talking about - over-emphasising the lore like this makes playing Nosferatu massively more difficult than any other clan
                          I can't talk about YOUR chronicle but in mine Nosferatus did just fine. Yes, their clan curse is crippling but so are most of the others if played correctly (as disadvantages/story fuel which is what they are meant for). The fact that Nossies are usually shunned doesn't mean this is true everywhere. There are cities with Nosferatu's princes/barons for example and Nosferatu's are often valued for their informatioin gathering skills (even when your average kindred doesn't care being publicly associated with them). They might not be the type of company your run of the mill Toreador would like to mingle with, but sometimes the Nosferatu's political power alone makes it unwise to ignore or disrespect them. That is to say, yes, they are ugly and yes, they are walking masquerade breaches (some MAY pass for diseased and disfigured people, some others simply cannot, just check a few examples of Nosferatu's NPCs form WW modules) but in vampiric society that alone doesn't cause them that much discomfort (generally speaking). They have to take care with mortals but they have the experience, the skills and the power to pull it off, most of the times.

                          That said, let me tell you something about clan weaknesses, how effective/crippling they are depends entirely on the ST and chronicle. Here's an example: back in the day there were A LOT of complaints about the Tremere clan curse. Apparently for many people it was not a curse at all. In my experience that was not the case. The Tremere PCs were not just saddled with the Transubstantiation of the Seven but also with institutions (the chantry and the clan itself) capable of making life difficult for them. THAT was their clan curse, having to deal in game with clanmates who more often than not were trying to exploit the PCs work while setting them up to fail and had the authority to do so. It was pretty harsh, but it could very well be skipped over if the ST wanted. That's why you should not generalize when talking about clan curses. Some games will play them in a way and some other games will do it differently.

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                          • #43
                            Complicating all of this further is that Dracula supposedly fleshcrafts away Beckett's bestial features from his clan's weakness in Beckett's Jyhad Diary.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Reasor View Post
                              Complicating all of this further is that Dracula supposedly fleshcrafts away Beckett's bestial features from his clan's weakness in Beckett's Jyhad Diary.
                              Dracula has always been kind of a special case in VtM (probably because he's... Dracula, the grandaddy of all vampires in pop culture), in VtM he's a young elder who somehow holds the power of a methuselah, and who did some pretty ludicrous things even when he was alive. Anyway it's pretty easy to explain him successfully using vicissitude on a clan curse by saying the power of Kupala (a demon of immense power) is enough to supress the curse for a time (Lukas, the abbot of Totten did a pact with an unnamed demon who supressed the Nosferatu's curse for 100 years, and it's unlikely said demon was as powerful as Kupala).

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Haquim View Post
                                Yes, their clan curse is crippling but so are most of the others if played correctly (as disadvantages/story fuel which is what they are meant for).
                                I don't know if we're using the same definitions for words. I don't think ANY of the clan curses should be crippling. In most games I've played, they are typically only flavor text or roleplaying incentives (the player is inspired by it and wants to explore it). Sometimes they do become "story fuel", but only because the ST needs something to hook the players, and it could just as easily be anything else they have on their character sheet or backstory.

                                Originally posted by Haquim View Post
                                That said, let me tell you something about clan weaknesses, how effective/crippling they are depends entirely on the ST and chronicle. Here's an example: back in the day there were A LOT of complaints about the Tremere clan curse. Apparently for many people it was not a curse at all. In my experience that was not the case. The Tremere PCs were not just saddled with the Transubstantiation of the Seven but also with institutions (the chantry and the clan itself) capable of making life difficult for them. THAT was their clan curse, having to deal in game with clanmates who more often than not were trying to exploit the PCs work while setting them up to fail and had the authority to do so. It was pretty harsh, but it could very well be skipped over if the ST wanted. That's why you should not generalize when talking about clan curses. Some games will play them in a way and some other games will do it differently.
                                Yes, it definitely depends on the ST. Clan curses could become nothing but flavor text, a minor inconvenience, a major obstacle, or an ongoing concern. However, in the groups I played with, it was all about having fun. Players, to a certain extent, want to be challenged, but they want to be challenged in ways they consider interesting to interact with, not obstacles just thrown at them.

                                Certainly if other players have a certain level of inconvenience because of their clan curse, and the Tremere (or any other clan) PCs don't have the same, then something should come up to equalize the situation.

                                In the examples you give, I find nothing to complain about. It's just your use of the word "crippling" I find odd.

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