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  • About Diablerie

    Some questions about the semi-mythical act of Amaranth.

    First: even if there is no rules on that topic, does make it sense that a vampire could "virtually lower" his Generation by diablerizing many ( DOZENS ) of lesser kindred instead of a single one of lower generation? Something like being able to raiser one or two Attributes ( but not all of them ) beyond his generation limit, or the ability to spend one more Blood Point per turn - but only every 2/3 turns, not consecutively - or to raise a single discipline to the new limit, mabye with some additional limitation.

    Second, there is room for a "consensual diablerie"? I've read about diablerized vampire being able to influence the diablerist behiavour. Could two vampire fully merge their souls if they agree on that?

    Third: for a crossover for Demon the Fallen, could a vampire and a demon reach an agreement to share the same body and take decisions together ( or they may take turns ), so they can both diablerize vampires and consume fallen angels?


    - - -

    Last idea...

    if that vampire-demon symbiote manages to diablerize all - or most - remaining Antediluvians AND to devour all - or most - remaining Earthbound...
    could he ( they? ), with that combined power, diablerize Caine and consume Lucifer?

    Then, if we use Time of Judgement scenario, we realize that angels can be consumed also, like demons ( page 90 ) and that most of the Fallen are still in the Abyss. If the uber demon-vampire manages to defeat and consume ALL the Heavenly Host ( low, mid and high ranking angels ) and to summon and consume ALL the demons still in the Abyss...

    then mabye he have a chance against the Creator Himself?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
    Some questions about the semi-mythical act of Amaranth.

    First: even if there is no rules on that topic, does make it sense that a vampire could "virtually lower" his Generation by diablerizing many ( DOZENS ) of lesser kindred instead of a single one of lower generation? Something like being able to raiser one or two Attributes ( but not all of them ) beyond his generation limit, or the ability to spend one more Blood Point per turn - but only every 2/3 turns, not consecutively - or to raise a single discipline to the new limit, mabye with some additional limitation.
    It's up to you. Personally I prefer the idea of Generation as a hard limit. The only way to exceed your generation is via diablerie of an existing lower generation Vampire. The only change I make to the existing diablerie rules is that I prefer for diablerie to immediately jump you up to the victim's generation. E.g. if you are 13th Gen and the victim is 7th gen, you become 7th gen after diablerising them.

    Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
    Second, there is room for a "consensual diablerie"? I've read about diablerized vampire being able to influence the diablerist behiavour. Could two vampire fully merge their souls if they agree on that?
    It's possible. You could argue that Saulot allowed his own diablerie as an example. Still it's hard to imagine a case in which a Vampire would allow this to happen. Since it's such a taboo topic, few if any Vampires would know that traces of the diablerised Vampire can remain in the diablerist. Know one knows what happens to Vampires after final death, but I still think most Vampires would choose that over diablerie.

    Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
    Third: for a crossover for Demon the Fallen, could a vampire and a demon reach an agreement to share the same body and take decisions together ( or they may take turns ), so they can both diablerize vampires and consume fallen angels?
    I think the body needs to be empty for a Demon to take possession. One that still has a Vampire inside may not count, but I'm not as familiar with Demon

    Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
    Last idea...

    if that vampire-demon symbiote manages to diablerize all - or most - remaining Antediluvians AND to devour all - or most - remaining Earthbound...
    could he ( they? ), with that combined power, diablerize Caine and consume Lucifer?

    Then, if we use Time of Judgement scenario, we realize that angels can be consumed also, like demons ( page 90 ) and that most of the Fallen are still in the Abyss. If the uber demon-vampire manages to defeat and consume ALL the Heavenly Host ( low, mid and high ranking angels ) and to summon and consume ALL the demons still in the Abyss...

    then mabye he have a chance against the Creator Himself?
    If you want to go down this route then that sounds like a suitably epic Gehenna scenario for a group that was into the idea. Personally my reading has always been that Caine can't be beaten. Not in a "he's stronger than you" way, but in a "that's part of God's curse on him" way.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
      Third: for a crossover for Demon the Fallen, could a vampire and a demon reach an agreement to share the same body and take decisions together ( or they may take turns ), so they can both diablerize vampires and consume fallen angels?
      Well yes, but it is highly unlikely. We know from Rites of the Blood page 116 that the blood of Caine is like a poison to demons, and the possession of Cainite vessels is exceptionally awkward for them. While vampires can, and often do, make deals with demons possession is rare performed.

      Ultimately, if you're the ST you can change the lore as you please however. If you're trying to remain faithful then this plan would hurt the demon a lot.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
        Some questions about the semi-mythical act of Amaranth.
        Lemme give my two cents.

        Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
        First: even if there is no rules on that topic, does make it sense that a vampire could "virtually lower" his Generation by diablerizing many ( DOZENS ) of lesser kindred instead of a single one of lower generation?
        Some sense, maybe, but we have some actual lore on the matter.

        Before their change in Revised, the Assamites had a ritual for lowering generation. That ritual required, IIRC, 100 Blood Points donated from vampires of the current Generation of the Assamite. That gives us a canon route to lower Gen that breaks two rules of Diablerie: there is no soul consumption and you use donors 1 Gen higher than usual (yours instead of target Gen).

        This is the only canon instance I can remember of reducing Generation without standard Diablerie of a lower Gen victim, but it also mean that the possibility exist. It would probably involve a ritual, though, instead of just eating lots of vampires. Curiously, it also hints that the benefits of the Amaranth may not come from the soul itself, but those being actually unconnected phenomena. Further evidence in this direction lies in the fact that Augustus missed Cappadocius soul, but got the Low Gen anyway.

        As for the amount of arcane knowledge and work to devise such a lowing gen ritual, it would probably be quite considerable, as the existing ritual came from the oldest and most competent group of vampire sorcerers after the Tremere, almost their equals.

        Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
        Second, there is room for a "consensual diablerie"? I've read about diablerized vampire being able to influence the diablerist behiavour. Could two vampire fully merge their souls if they agree on that?
        Possible, but unlikely.

        We have confirmed canon cases of influence, possession, merge with one of the personalities as predominant, and the Diablerist's soul being expelled from the body to make room for the Diablerized. We have instances of resisting and of consenting victims, and we have many instances of ongoing struggle over years for dominance.

        But we don't have neither two vampire souls in a single body or an amalgam soul forming through consensus. It doesn't seem at all beyond possibility, but is just hard to imagine two vampires doing that. At least two with enough power and knowledge to even come up with the plan, let alone executing it properly.

        Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
        Third: for a crossover for Demon the Fallen, could a vampire and a demon reach an agreement to share the same body and take decisions together ( or they may take turns ), so they can both diablerize vampires and consume fallen angels?
        By RAW, impossible. As per the provisions in the Demon Storyteller's Companion, Vampires can't be possessed or made into Thralls.

        Do observe, however, that those rules were uncertain at the time and later we had confirmation of Pacts between Vampires and Fallen happening. So I wouldn't just dismiss the possibility.

        Even then, it is hard to say what such creature would be. My first impression, as I said in another thread about consensual possession of a human, is that they wouldn't have access to each other's powers and abilities. On the same vein, they wouldn't mutually benefit from the consumption, each incorporating their own kind on themselves, only.

        A Fallen's Faith is a life-giving force, despite all the death-like aspects they may incorporate. Trying to use the power of the Blood would sooner cleanse the Curse than let the Demon exert Disciplines. I would make an exception for some very specific cases, but not as default (as far as such arrangement can have a default).

        Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
        Last idea...
        Tricky one, but I would lean towards it being unlikely.

        You see, this question have layers, and numerous unknown variables.

        How powerful are Caine and Lucifer? At first, they theoretically follow the same rules as their lesser kin, just with added dots in the sheet, so to speak.

        But at the same time, both are exceptions to the normal rules, and then everything is a guess. Caine has whatever you consider the logical extension of power from 3rd to 1st Gen. Lucifer is bound to no host, his True Form simply isn't drawn to the Abyss and can wander the Earth. Can Caine Dominate every vampire with a mere thought? Does Lucifer knows Lores other Demons and Angels never heard about? What other resources, knowledge, possessions, magics they know off?

        On the other side, this character collected an immense amount of power... within constraints. The bigger constraints are with the Vampire, as Diablerie does not give permanent benefits in anything but Generation. So even Best Case Scenario this vampire is 2nd or even 1st Gen, but with the same dots in everything as before. A lot of potential, but clearly beneath Caine, or even any consumed Methuselah.

        Demons can get a little more, but are still limited to selecting a few choice bits of whatever the victim actually had. Granted, with such a humongous number of victims this is a virtually infinite umber of Freebies. To expend withing human limits. The Fallen have human limits on everything eligible for enhancing, or are limited to their own normal limits in Faith and Lore. That would certainly be quite a powerful being, but still not empowered with any unique trait or whatever from the victims. You can assume access to every Lore that is not unique to Lucifer at a 5 rating, 5 in every Attribute and Ability score, and Willpower 10. Impressive, boring, and still beatable as Lucifer is likely to have the same things plus a unique and permanent Apocalyptic Form and tricks unknown to other Demons, while it isn't likely that many Demons knew anything of relevance he didn't already.

        Going from there to the Creator is even more of a stretch. How do you define the Creator? If you consider that Demons' description is accurate, then the answer is probably that they can't even meaningfully interact with God even with so much power. Is like amassing all the energy on Earth to shoot at the Quasar in the center of the Galaxy.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
          Some questions about the semi-mythical act of Amaranth.

          First: even if there is no rules on that topic, does make it sense that a vampire could "virtually lower" his Generation by diablerizing many ( DOZENS ) of lesser kindred instead of a single one of lower generation? Something like being able to raiser one or two Attributes ( but not all of them ) beyond his generation limit, or the ability to spend one more Blood Point per turn - but only every 2/3 turns, not consecutively - or to raise a single discipline to the new limit, mabye with some additional limitation.
          [/B]
          Just my 2 cents on this one part of your question…

          There is a s a practical reason this should not be possible. If it were possible, realistically I think vampires would become very rare as they would all be trying to devour one another in order to amass more power. On an individual level then, the only limiting factor on lowering one’s generation would be falling to the beast, and with time this could be avoided by any vampire that was able to control their addiction and take their time.

          If such a thing were possible you would see vampires embracing childer just to diablerize them. Young and/or high generation vampires would become rare. Many more vampires would fall to the beast and become inhuman monsters, and there would be many more 3rd generation vampires around than canon indicates, though most would not be as old in years or as powerful (in dots) as the true antediluvians.

          This would all result in a dramatically different world than canon presents. It might make for a fun game, but it would dispense with almost the entire vampire metaplot.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Vilenecromancer View Post
            We know from Rites of the Blood
            OP is about a cross-over with Demon: the Fallen. Rites of Blood is a strictly Vampire supplement that does not identifies further what kind of creature it is calling a Demon, and directly contradicts in their depiction DtF lore, so it is really unlikely that it applies to the Fallen. The rules for crossover between those lines are all scattered through Revised books, especially the Demon Storyteller's Companion, with some bits in books like Lair of the Hidden (that makes precedence for a Pact with Vampires).


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            • #7
              Taking what is said of the Creator across the World
              of Darkness as given, if She is so apart from Her creation that even the eldest Wan Kuei can't find her and assume she's abandoned what She made, then She's certainly beyond a player reach. She's not even finite. She didn't even create galaxy clusters by hand. She made the angels who made them, and gave the order.

              On to another question, this is similar to an idea I suggested for Malkavian olayers in another thread, but in the event of a Fallen and a Cainite collaborating to inhabit the same form, I'd suggest creating a new character to be the resulting hybrid, with one soul represented by the character's Nature and the other by the Demeanor to gamify the two souls' agendas. If we're talking about two players who both want to be part, they can settle it by thumb wrestling or hot potato.
              Last edited by Reasor; 12-24-2021, 09:31 AM.

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              • #8
                What happens if a Ghoul drinks the heart's blood of a vampire? Since it's a physical thing, it can be done.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
                  What happens if a Ghoul drinks the heart's blood of a vampire? Since it's a physical thing, it can be done.
                  No, it can't. Despite appearing like a physical thing because it is a Str roll, it is actually still a mystical benefit of the vampiric condition. Non-vampires can't do this.


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                  • #10
                    No, it's a physical thing.
                    It can even be harvested and preserved.

                    Heart's Blood

                    Assamite studies of vitae have isolated the part within a vampire's blood that contains the soul. They call it "heart's blood" and it manifests as a thick, blackish liquid that quickly grows dry when it leaves the body.[1] Via applications of Quietus, they are able to manipulate the heart's blood to allow them to diablerize a victim later. Furthermore, studies in Quietus have found a way to force the last drop of vitae within a vampire's body to calcify the heart into a semi-translucent grayish-white flask known as a "Debitum". The Debitum enshrouds the spiritual essence (the "heart's-blood") of the victim – which, if examined in detail, can be seen encased within, swimming in despair. Heart’s-blood preserved in this way endures indefinitely. If vampiric fangs pierce it, the heart reanimates, pumping a cupful of celadon-colored, aqueous, non-burning flame vaguely resembling the victim into the vampire's maw. The vampire gains all the benefits of diablerie from this.[2] Heart's blood plays an important role in Assamite society, being used for rituals of the Path of Blood, studies of the Sorcerer and Vizier Caste and used to repay one's master in Alamut.[1]
                    https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Diablerie_(VTM)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
                      No, it's a physical thing.
                      It can even be harvested and preserved.



                      https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Diablerie_(VTM)
                      It can be harvested and preserved by mystical ways. None of this is done through purely physical means, but through the applications of either a Discipline or magic rituals (something the Assamites know a lot, they've been the sorcerer clan way before the Tremere were a thing).

                      The fact that the resultant substance is physical does not make the process of obtaining it mundane.

                      Or, put on another word, their in-character conclusions do not correlate to out-of-character facts. You can interpret what you want out of this, but the lore does not confirm such a thing as real and there is no indication that it is even possible to acquire this substance through purely physical means, like a pump. It is consistently the sole purview of vampires to try and absorb it.


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                      • #12
                        " it manifests as a thick, blackish liquid that quickly grows dry when it leaves the body.



                        Thick. Blackish. And grows dry. Consistence, color, and reacts to air. Honestly I don't know what kind of words could describe more clearly a tangible, physical matter.
                        And it can be harvested and preserved only through magic, ok, but it does not say - it does not even hint - that this heart blood can't be simply pumped or sipped out. It simply states that it quickly ( so NOT istantaneously ) dry.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post

                          If vampiric fangs pierce it, the heart reanimates, pumping a cupful of celadon-colored, aqueous, non-burning flame vaguely resembling the victim into the vampire's maw.

                          https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Diablerie_(VTM)

                          It's obviously written to prevent anyone from the vampire that bites it from being able to drink it.

                          Even if a ghoul somehow managed to get it, the only thing that makes it "special" is the effect it has for vampires. If it was something that was possible and had an effect, it would have been written up before now.

                          I'm pretty sure Samuel Haight would have done back before he got ashtrayed...


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
                            " it manifests as a thick, blackish liquid that quickly grows dry when it leaves the body.

                            Thick. Blackish. And grows dry. Consistence, color, and reacts to air. Honestly I don't know what kind of words could describe more clearly a tangible, physical matter.
                            And it can be harvested and preserved only through magic, ok, but it does not say - it does not even hint - that this heart blood can't be simply pumped or sipped out. It simply states that it quickly ( so NOT istantaneously ) dry.
                            The problem is that no other group of Kindred throughout ALL OF HISTORY have ever figured out methods of extracting and using Heartsblood. The ONLY ones that can do it are those who possess a Discipline that specializes (partially) in manipulating Kindred vitae. If anyone could extract Heartsblood, why haven't Tzimisce Metamorphosists? Dr. Douglas Netchurch?

                            You ought to consider that Heartsblood has never, to the best of my knowledge, been referenced anywhere outside of specific rules referring to the Banu Haqim and their in-Clan Discipline. For the rest of the Kindred world, it almost might as well not exist. That is not absolute proof that Heartsblood is magically-generated and cannot be produced, processed, etc., in a mundane fashion. But it is a strong argument in favour in my opinion. There are plenty of other vampire scholars who could have uncovered something like that if they were able to; in your own home setting, you *could* change that. But the canon setting as-is strongly implies that particular mystical practices are a pre-requisite to acquiring Heartsblood.

                            But imagining a hypothetical situation where a Ghoul did manage to consume some Heartsblood (e.g. a Banu Haqim Sorcerer extracts some Heartsblood and magically preserves it long enough that a Ghoul could swallow it from a cup), I would probably posit one of two outcomes:

                            a) it's just plain vitae to them. Lacking a true vampiric soul, they simply aren't capable of interacting with the soul trapped in the Heartsblood, and it's effectively wasted.

                            b) it's an instant Embrace; drinking it effectively kills the Ghoul and turns them into a Kindred of the same Clan and Generation as the source of the Heartsblood.

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                            • #15
                              Option (a) seems much more likely here. Extracting heartsblood has nothing to do with mechanical pressure or such: if you completely drain a vampire of blood, they go into torpor; if you fiddle around with the heart or something to squeeze out an infinitesimal drop, you'll kill them before you manage to get anything. Without sorcery or Quietus (sorcery formalized into a Discipline, from its description), you cannot form the heartsblood.

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