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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
    Eh, You're correct on that front, but I think it's be fair to say that since thin bloods 100% show up at the "Current" thinnest generation depending on era, then the curse at that time is weak enough to dispel on that individual.
    It's not 100%. The 14th and 15th Generation Flaws do not have to be taken with the Thin-blooded Flaw. Being true to the setting means you should in most cases, but the PCs are exceptional, and being a non-thin-blood 15th Gen can be one form of being such.

    I would also still argue that the curse is at least partially weakened by generation considering that the amount of power a vampire can draw from it weakens with generation.
    The point of contention, in the end, is why should this even matter?

    To go back to the fire example:

    If a mage is trying to put out a fire by removing all the oxygen from the room to deny the fire fuel, does it matter how strong the fire is?

    Because that's what a lot of people view this situation as. You disagree. OK. But the "it doesn't matter how strong the fire is, you're dealing with the oxygen regardless," camp is largely there to keep cures to vampirism and other such things rare and difficult... even for the high Gen or thin-blooded. It's better for the setting for undoing other supernaturals to not be done easily.

    Since you can set it up either way, what's the benefit of letting mages more easily cure vamprism?

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  • Prometheas
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    At least pre-V5, thin-bloods aren't actually tied to any given Generation. A 4th Gen could develop it, while a 14th might not. It's just a condition that tends to show up more the higher the Generation of the era is, and more in the highest Generations by those standards. Long enough ago 10th Gens were very high Gen vampires and prone to being thin-bloods, and being 11th or 12th Gen would have the effects of V20 flaws for the higher Generations.
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

    The curse isn't as simple as just diluting with distance from the progenitor, as there is also an odd strengthening of the former weakest as a new weakest takes their place.
    Eh, You're correct on that front, but I think it's be fair to say that since thin bloods 100% show up at the "Current" thinnest generation depending on era, then the curse at that time is weak enough to dispel on that individual. At least until it gathers enough strength to "Bounce back" like it started to in beckets jyhad diary.

    I would also still argue that the curse is at least partially weakened by generation considering that the amount of power a vampire can draw from it weakens with generation. Then again, Generation may or may not be a curse from caine, which is weird because that implies caine can strengthen or weaken the power of God, but noddism also says he wasn't supposed to "spread" vampirism in the first place, so maybe spreading it weakens the power of the curse enough to control it in other people?

    How vampirism works isn't really clear. I'm just going to go with the generation thing and say it works that way because that's what fits the paradigm of the mage who invented it.

    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    In any case, there's still a lot of people that would feel like outright curing the curse - even in just an individual target - is about fighting the curse itself, not the strength or weakness of how it impacts the vampire the mage seeks to help.


    I disagree. Partly because True Magick depends on paradigm to the point that the spheres themselves are hinted at just being a popular paradigm rather than a fundamental aspect of the universe like mages thing they are.

    Partly because vampires have other options for cures that don't involve curing every vampire ever. In older editions, one of the possible rewards for achieving golconda was becoming human again and in 1st edition, it was Easy enough for Any vampire to do it. In 1st edition, the theme of golconda at the time was to show that vampires as a whole were actively Choosing to be what they are when salvation was literally one door over.

    So I have zero issue with players having access to becoming human again. I appreciate the idea that vampires actively Choose to hold onto damnation for the sake of temporal power.

    Originally posted by Vilenecromancer View Post
    Okay first, you are creating life, as the original life is gone in nearly all vampires. Once living cells have died, they break down quickly, and evidence from multiple books, including the Jyhad diary, suggests that DNA breaks down after the embrace in most cases. Thin-bloods of a higher generation are an exception here so I could see Life 3 being used instead as the DNA is actually preserved in them.
    Why wouldn't the DNA of other vampires also be preserved? They are locked into the moment they were embraced after all. That's why they can't get tattoos or new scares without the assistance of blood magic.

    Originally posted by Vilenecromancer View Post
    Second, Time and Matter 5 is needed to change the body to state in which it was before the embrace. Unless this is right after the embrace, the body quickly breaks down DNA and removes all non blood related liquids. Matter 5 is to alter the properties of the body into a living form, and give them more then just blood to work with. Matter 3 is just changing matters form and such, you can't breath life into it at that level. So you are in fact creating new matter, or altering existing matter into how it was before. Accurate knowledge of Anatomy might actually remove the need for time, otherwise Time 5 is needed still.
    I'd say all of what you said is subject to paradigm.

    If you mage is a hardcore technocrat that has a heavy enfaces of some permutation of modern science as the source of their paradigm sure, but I could 100% see a shaman getting away with lower sphere requirements.

    Originally posted by Vilenecromancer View Post
    Entropy 4 or 5 is especially needed to undo the fabrics of the original curse/infection. If the original form of the curse was from a god, then this is very much needed. Ultimately this one is the more subjective of the spheres needed so I could give you that one.
    You could also just do that with prime 5. One of prime's central abilities is being able to unweave the magic of Any sphere. You don't need entropy to unweave curses, just prime.

    Originally posted by Vilenecromancer View Post
    The high number of successes, 20, is needed is because, vampirism is suppose to be impossible to cure! All vampires are supposedly vampires forever, and their own hope is often rumors and conjecture. The fact a mage can do it, doesn't change the fact that it's still close to impossible even if there is no god involved. Now that said, High generation thin-bloods would likely require less successes...maybe.

    Ultimately, M20 is complicated and mind numbing. The answer is yes if you ask can a mage do it, but it'll spark debate and hours of research on all sides. I will stand by the 20 minimum successes needed, as vampires should be almost impossible to cure. I'll also stand by Life 5 at least with my spheres. Everything else is subjective, tends to be the problem with mage.
    Again, I disagree with the premise that vampirism is impossible to cure. I also think there's more narrative merit to making it easier to cure than the opposite.

    A character that has to sit down to question whether they Want to be human again after tasting the power inherent to being a vampire or confront the fact that they Can leave, but they Choose not to, is an interesting character. More on the point, it's a character that still fits with the themes of person al horror when they have to face the fact that being a vampire Is Not what makes them a monster.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    I actually do agree that you're probably being too heavy handed with the Sphere assignments.

    But in the end, everyone agrees it's a Master level effect with that impact of base difficulty, and the number of successes you need isn't based in the level of the Spheres used, but what the impact of the spell is.

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  • Vilenecromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post



    If they were trying to remove the Idea of the curse of vampirism forever and have all vampire everywhere start turning into mortals, yes.

    Turning 1 Person back into a human would take Much less effort.

    You aren't Creating Life, so Life 5 is unnecessary. Life 3 would do.

    You'll need Matter because the vampire is dead, but you aren't Creating matter, so Matter 3 is enough.

    Entropy 5 isn't needed what-so-ever.

    The person's body was preserved by the curse, so Time is also unnecessary.

    Prime 5 is still needed. You're still breaking someone free from a powerful curse not unlike a permanent paradox flaw, so magic powerful enough to overcome paradox itself is needed.

    You also wouldn't need to roll more successes than God unless you were curing Caine Himself, and I'm sure the big man upstairs will be fine with a few less vampires in the world. Especially if it was just some poor sap that got mugged.

    I'd say successes required should be (16 subtracting the vampires generation) squared, plus 1 for every century of un-life. If the person is a new, 14th-gen thin-blood, then only a few successes should be required, but the elder vampire lording over southern france is out of the question.
    Okay first, you are creating life, as the original life is gone in nearly all vampires. Once living cells have died, they break down quickly, and evidence from multiple books, including the Jyhad diary, suggests that DNA breaks down after the embrace in most cases. Thin-bloods of a higher generation are an exception here so I could see Life 3 being used instead as the DNA is actually preserved in them.

    Second, Time and Matter 5 is needed to change the body to state in which it was before the embrace. Unless this is right after the embrace, the body quickly breaks down DNA and removes all non blood related liquids. Matter 5 is to alter the properties of the body into a living form, and give them more then just blood to work with. Matter 3 is just changing matters form and such, you can't breath life into it at that level. So you are in fact creating new matter, or altering existing matter into how it was before. Accurate knowledge of Anatomy might actually remove the need for time, otherwise Time 5 is needed still.

    Entropy 4 or 5 is especially needed to undo the fabrics of the original curse/infection. If the original form of the curse was from a god, then this is very much needed. Ultimately this one is the more subjective of the spheres needed so I could give you that one.

    The high number of successes, 20, is needed is because, vampirism is suppose to be impossible to cure! All vampires are supposedly vampires forever, and their own hope is often rumors and conjecture. The fact a mage can do it, doesn't change the fact that it's still close to impossible even if there is no god involved. Now that said, High generation thin-bloods would likely require less successes...maybe.

    Ultimately, M20 is complicated and mind numbing. The answer is yes if you ask can a mage do it, but it'll spark debate and hours of research on all sides. I will stand by the 20 minimum successes needed, as vampires should be almost impossible to cure. I'll also stand by Life 5 at least with my spheres. Everything else is subjective, tends to be the problem with mage.
    Last edited by Vilenecromancer; 01-05-2022, 02:45 PM.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    At least pre-V5, thin-bloods aren't actually tied to any given Generation. A 4th Gen could develop it, while a 14th might not. It's just a condition that tends to show up more the higher the Generation of the era is, and more in the highest Generations by those standards. Long enough ago 10th Gens were very high Gen vampires and prone to being thin-bloods, and being 11th or 12th Gen would have the effects of V20 flaws for the higher Generations.

    The curse isn't as simple as just diluting with distance from the progenitor, as there is also an odd strengthening of the former weakest as a new weakest takes their place.

    In any case, there's still a lot of people that would feel like outright curing the curse - even in just an individual target - is about fighting the curse itself, not the strength or weakness of how it impacts the vampire the mage seeks to help.

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  • Prometheas
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    It terms of how difficult magic is, all that matters is the highest Sphere, any other spheres are just XP barriers, rather than how hard the spell will be to pull off once you hit all the requirements. If you accept that it's a Master level effect, you're already accepting a very high degree of difficulty.

    There also isn't anything in Mage that supports the idea of the number of successes being variable based on a combination of Generation and the vampire's age. It's not a horrible concept, but it doesn't fit into how mage constructs itself. As long as it is otherwise mundane, the success need to snuff out a flame don't care if it's a candle that was mass produced worth a couple cents at a dollar store, or an oil lamp that's been burning for five hundred years as a group of monks have been dedicated to tending to it religiously since their monastery was founded. To a mage, it's just a flame.
    I largely included used generation as a measure of how powerful the curse effecting the vampire is, which is kind of how VTM works. The curse effecting a 4th generation methusela is more powerful than one effecting a 13th gen neonate because it hasn't been diluted as many times, that's why thin bloods are a thing.

    Age was kind of an afterthought, but I included that into the calc because it effects diablerie rules. The diablerie rules in the v20 black hand supplement suggest that the curse also gets stronger with time, not just blood-purity.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    It terms of how difficult magic is, all that matters is the highest Sphere, any other spheres are just XP barriers, rather than how hard the spell will be to pull off once you hit all the requirements. If you accept that it's a Master level effect, you're already accepting a very high degree of difficulty.

    There also isn't anything in Mage that supports the idea of the number of successes being variable based on a combination of Generation and the vampire's age. It's not a horrible concept, but it doesn't fit into how mage constructs itself. As long as it is otherwise mundane, the success need to snuff out a flame don't care if it's a candle that was mass produced worth a couple cents at a dollar store, or an oil lamp that's been burning for five hundred years as a group of monks have been dedicated to tending to it religiously since their monastery was founded. To a mage, it's just a flame.

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  • Prometheas
    replied
    Originally posted by Vilenecromancer View Post
    Yes, but it's complicated. Mages can do just about anything under the Sun, and then some. The catch is that it not only wouldn't be easy, but also very likely to get the mage killed. Not only from vampires trying to avoid a masquerade breech, but also the paradox that'll likely kill them in one go.

    The minimum spheres needed, from my limited mage knowledge, would need ALL of the following:
    ● Life 5. To remake the body into a living form.
    ● Entropy 5. To deconstruct the idea of vampirism for the target. Also to remove the curse upon this individual.
    ● Matter 5. To change the properties of the body the kindred has.
    ● Prime 5. To infuse them with new life.
    ● Time 5. To bring the person back to a perfect form of how they were before the curse.

    To top this off, you'll like need anywhere between 10 to 20+ success on an extended magic check to succeed. Lastly this magic is vulgar and may invoke paradox, although the vampire will never count as a witness even after being cured.
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
    Sure, you just need to roll more successes than God.
    If they were trying to remove the Idea of the curse of vampirism forever and have all vampire everywhere start turning into mortals, yes.

    Turning 1 Person back into a human would take Much less effort.

    You aren't Creating Life, so Life 5 is unnecessary. Life 3 would do.

    You'll need Matter because the vampire is dead, but you aren't Creating matter, so Matter 3 is enough.

    Entropy 5 isn't needed what-so-ever.

    The person's body was preserved by the curse, so Time is also unnecessary.

    Prime 5 is still needed. You're still breaking someone free from a powerful curse not unlike a permanent paradox flaw, so magic powerful enough to overcome paradox itself is needed.

    You also wouldn't need to roll more successes than God unless you were curing Caine Himself, and I'm sure the big man upstairs will be fine with a few less vampires in the world. Especially if it was just some poor sap that got mugged.

    I'd say successes required should be (16 subtracting the vampires generation) squared, plus 1 for every century of un-life. If the person is a new, 14th-gen thin-blood, then only a few successes should be required, but the elder vampire lording over southern france is out of the question.
    Last edited by Prometheas; 01-04-2022, 10:43 PM. Reason: grammar

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  • Vilenecromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
    I never understood that "more successes than God" thing.
    If - and it's not 100% sure - the creator is truly omnipotent and not "just" a powerful demiurge, and if the cosmology of Werewolf is wrong about the issue...
    in short, even if the Curse is truly the will of the Only God...

    so is gravity. And all the laws of physics and biology.

    Laws that are routinely violated by supernaturals of every kind.

    So, if both the moral and physical laws of God are routinely violated, why should the Curse of Caine be any different?

    Beside that, powerful demons can remove the Curse with a level 10 Investment.
    Well to put it simply, in the WoD universe all religious philosophies and ideas are technically correct. To explain it simply, the world is based off collective belief and understanding. Mages specifically know this best, and using their knowledge and beliefs are able to shape reality to their will.

    Since all beliefs are, kinda, real then so are all spirits and gods. Mages can interact with these powerful individuals, and in some cases replace them. It is literally insane, but werewolves are correct. Although so is literally everyone else.

    Also as beliefs change so does the gods and spirits. The best example is during the dark ages when countless spirits became demons, not fallen...I think, because of the massive surge in the catholic church and its inquisition.

    Edit: Mage lore is insane, fascinating, and frustrating all at the same time. The phrase "it's how the ST wants it" is so very true in WoD because of these insane lore. Also I personally understand little of it atm, as I am still trying to get into mage and have barely scratched the surface on the iceberg.
    Last edited by Vilenecromancer; 12-27-2021, 07:53 PM.

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  • Haquim
    replied
    Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
    I never understood that "more successes than God" thing.
    If - and it's not 100% sure - the creator is truly omnipotent and not "just" a powerful demiurge, and if the cosmology of Werewolf is wrong about the issue...
    in short, even if the Curse is truly the will of the Only God...

    so is gravity. And all the laws of physics and biology.

    Laws that are routinely violated by supernaturals of every kind.

    So, if both the moral and physical laws of God are routinely violated, why should the Curse of Caine be any different?

    Beside that, powerful demons can remove the Curse with a level 10 Investment.
    The points you make are EXTREMELY debatable as far as the WoD and VtM in particular are concerned but anyway... the "You need to roll more successes than God" quote is a simple way to tell people you don't remove the curse by just rolling dices. Doing something like that should be the focus of a whole Chronicle. This was expanded with "The Red Sign" which provides a few possible ways to do exactly that in the context of both Vampire and Mage.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Mages don't deal with the same consequences as other supernaturals when violating the laws or realty; whatever their source. One of the things mages struggle with is permanence. Turning a vampire into a human for a night is exceedingly easier than making it permanent. Mages can violate laws left and right, but those laws try to reassert themselves and fill back in.

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  • Solomon Draak
    replied
    I never understood that "more successes than God" thing.
    If - and it's not 100% sure - the creator is truly omnipotent and not "just" a powerful demiurge, and if the cosmology of Werewolf is wrong about the issue...
    in short, even if the Curse is truly the will of the Only God...

    so is gravity. And all the laws of physics and biology.

    Laws that are routinely violated by supernaturals of every kind.

    So, if both the moral and physical laws of God are routinely violated, why should the Curse of Caine be any different?

    Beside that, powerful demons can remove the Curse with a level 10 Investment.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Curing a vampire of their curse only to end up inflicting Pattern Bleed on them is a pretty harsh thing to do

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  • Haquim
    replied
    Originally posted by TheMastigoseQueen View Post
    I'm not sure if i should put this here or in the mage tag, but ill ask here anyway. Can a mage with sufficient enough power break the curse and turn a kindred mortal again?
    Yes, if he can roll more successes than God...

    P.S.

    In truth there's a whole module dedicated to this very topic in Revised: "The Red Sign". In short, there are obscure and EXTREMELY powerful and difficult rituals that possibly CAN revert the curse... none of those is easy to acquire and cast and even then there's a very real risk the vampire will be turned to ash (getting rid of the Curse should be the focus of a whole Chronicle not something you "solve" by casting dice).

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  • Vilenecromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

    Sure, you just need to roll more successes than God.
    The worse part is this is not inaccurate.

    Edit: BTW God-Like feats with magic require a minimum of 20 successes.
    Last edited by Vilenecromancer; 12-27-2021, 04:27 PM.

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