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Should Potence, Celerity and Fortitude have sinergic effects?

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  • Should Potence, Celerity and Fortitude have sinergic effects?

    I was thinking about the "secondary" or collateral consequences of enanching strength, speed and durability through Disciplines.


    A vampire with Potence should get some kind of protection from his strength. If a car crashes on him, or is squeezed by a greath weight, he can push against the damaging force and reduce it. He can stiff his muscles and oppose to neck-snapping or joint breaking ( judo, ju-jitsu ecc. ). Since his legs are strong enough to allow to jump several meters high, fall damage should be reduced if he falls on his feet.

    A vampire with Celerity should do more damage when he hits something at full speed. After all, isn't strength = mass * acceleration? I don't know if that applies to all form of attacks ( biting probably no, hitting with a weapon mabye ) but if the vampire charge and throw himself against something ( shoulder, headbutt, flying knee, dropkick ), the blow should be commesurately stronger.
    I mean, a dropkick from a 60 kg vampire at 25 miles/hour is not the same as a drop kick from the same vampire at 100 miles / hours.

    A vampire with Fortitude should be, simply put, harder. Vampiric resilience isn't simply "ignoring organ damage", that is covered by the halved bashing damage. Fortitude allows to soak blades, spears, big stones and the like. So, I guess that a vampire with 3-4 dots in Fortitude should have a body hard as bronze or stone, while at Fortitude 5 or more it should be steel - like.
    So, when a vampire with such an hard body hits, he should do more damage than normal.

  • Sultanabdal
    replied
    Meanwhile, Brujah and Assamites leave such speculation on the physics of Celerity to the likes of Douglas Netchurch, and zip around like the wind and take names.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
    HeavyArms, I have the impression that my post keep irritating you...
    Mildly. But what do you expect. Consider that the conversation basically went:

    HA: "Do you really want to consider all the physics of this?"
    SD: "Actually yeah, I want to pay attention to these things."
    HA: "OK, so what's your plan to make it fun to use considering how much stuff that means taking into consideration?"
    SD: "Actually, I want to completely ignore all those details I just said I want to pay attention to."

    Mild irritation seems like a normal response to that, yeah? Don't you get annoyed if you feel like you're being jerked around?

    Yet if a vampire with Stamina 1, no Resilience and Celerity 5 tries to move at full speed, I think his flesh would rip.
    Actually? Nope. Even at the speed of sound, the friction of air on human skin isn't enough to do lasting harm (baring an existing open wound). It isn't a pleasant experience, but the US Air Force did all sorts of testing in this area for jet pilot safety (like, can you safely eject out of a jet going that fast?), and test pilots have subjected themselves to these sorts of conditions on purpose to prove the hypothetical that science said should happen.

    People think of dangerous winds as starting at 100 mph, but that's not because of your skin ripping off, that's because of the wind throwing something at you at 100 mph, or knocking you off your feet and dragging you on the ground at 100 mph.

    The place where a high Celerity character's skin would be in danger if physics applied to them, would be their feet. The friction of running on pavement, or many natural soil types, or shred shoes, socks, skin, tendons and so on. We're talking about falling and skinning your knee, but 100x worse.
    Last edited by Heavy Arms; 01-17-2022, 06:57 PM.

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  • Solomon Draak
    replied
    HeavyArms, I have the impression that my post keep irritating you so mabye is better than I avoid talking with you. Sorry.

    @MyWifeIsScary: yep, it's bloody hilarious. ^ ^

    But I wouldn't be so harsh. As I wrote, the acceleration should do damage only at very high speeds ( Celerity 3+ ) and even then, only bashing ( compressed flesh, broken cartilage and the like ).

    Yet if a vampire with Stamina 1, no Resilience and Celerity 5 tries to move at full speed, I think his flesh would rip.

    Also I think the lines you're drawing are weird

    guy moves too fast for his eyes to bare -should go blind.
    guy doesn't actually have living cells in his organs- totally fine.
    Vampires can have their lungs, sleen and livers holed by bullets and it barely sting. They're quite hardy.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
    For mid to high level physical disciplines, I think have at least 1 point of Fortitude should be a Required Secondary Power.
    So, your solution is a 10 XP tax to hand-wave away everything? Why even bother in the first place then?

    I would point you over to the Exalted forums for lots of very long threads about how annoying three core editions of a game have been where they setup all these rules, and then you pay a char-gen or XP tax and then get to ignore them to go play world conquering demigods. People that like the details and how it works for playing lower powered characters get frustrated because a bit of XP and all that detail stops mattering. People that want to skip over all that detail hate having to spend character resources just to get to the core character types of the game doing what they're supposed to do.

    Who actually gets excited for the idea of a "Required Secondary Power," in a game where you're supposed to be able to make whatever vampire you want within the limits of your starting points and XP?

    Leave a comment:


  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    While it's an interesting mental image to have vampires torn up by their own speed or strength, perhaps wearing goggles to protect their eyes from winds, it doesn't do well for a game that's supposed to have some semblance of a sustainable masquerade. If you have vampires tearing themselves up and regenerating instead of simply having an advantage in movement then it's only a matter of time before the hunters follow the blood trail (it's also an oddly harmful use of the Rule of Cool, which normally lets characters get away with more than they should)


    Also I think the lines you're drawing are weird

    guy moves too fast for his eyes to bare -should go blind.
    guy doesn't actually have living cells in his organs- totally fine.

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  • Solomon Draak
    replied
    What's your idea to abstract this enough to be playable?
    Long story short: for low level disciplines, we can go with "a vampire's dead body is more resilient than a living one and can adapt".
    Penalties to adapt after learning new Disciplines should last only a game session or two at best, just the time for the kindred to get used.

    For mid to high level physical disciplines, I think have at least 1 point of Fortitude should be a Required Secondary Power.

    About ghouls... hypersemplified: even if he has the same dots in Celerity, Potence and Fortitude, a single ghoul should lose pretty badly to a single vampire in a head-to-head.
    An elder ghoul should adapt better to the strain.

    If two ghouls with Potence, Fortitude and Resilience 1, roughly equal in stats, fight and the first has been a ghoul for a month while the second is a century-old, the older ghoul should win by a fairly neat margin, no rolls required. The younger may win by pulling out some trick or strategy, but in a clean head-to-head duel he should be overwhelmed because his movements lack control and he has not developed the fine-tuned reflexes needed to use his physicality at best.

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  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Yeah, the more you pull at these threads, the more the WoD falls apart. It's probably easier to just leave the abstractions as they are.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    OK. So you seriously want to go there....

    First things first. How do you plan on making this any sort of fun to use in play? Is anyone going to want to use Celerity if they have to make 3-5 reflexive checks to make sure they don't destroy themselves from the speed? Are they going to want to track a dozen modifiers to different types of actions?

    What's your idea to abstract this enough to be playable?
    This is basically the main question, although there's a lot to unpack here for people that aren't familiar with the design discussions from the 90's and 2000's. I'll try to be concise, whomever can help, please do.

    1 - Making vampires deadlier against mortals, making Disciplines have more cool interactions and applying Physics to Disciplines are all distinct design goals. No matter how much you see them as related (and they can be), they must be understood as their own, separate things;

    2 - The examples given about Physics are still just scratching the surface. There's the effects on the vampires surroundings, how those added forces interact with other force vectors like gravity and spin, friction and drag against both the street and the air, and many others;

    3 - In the end, that means that describing reality faithfully, even a single aspect of it, is an extremely complex task. One that, working in the framework of an RPG, you'll fail at. It is impossible, because of the other design goals a game must have: be playable and be fun for the players, that are normal human beings;

    4 - Also because you need a near perfect understanding of Physics to do it correctly. Whatever doesn't make sense for you, given a lay understanding of the field you're bound to rely on things that you think make perfect sense, but doesn't for other people with other equally incomplete information about this;

    5 - Never lose sight of the three major design goals: playability, fun and thematic coherence. Verosimilitude seems extremely important at first, but it actually derives a lot from the other three, especially thematic coherence. You must pay attention to it still, but not primarily;

    6 - Understand, while you may disagree with this, what are the design goals of the game, because there's a lot of difference between proposing a change you think serves better those design goals and proposing a new design goal entirely. Both are valid things to do, if they're clearly and correctly stated. What you're proposing is a fundamental change in design goals, and people won't answer the same way if you try to present it otherwise.

    Since you propose a new design goal, state clearly what you want to accomplish, what you want to replace as a goal, why you think it would be interesting and how would you pursue it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    OK. So you seriously want to go there....

    First things first. How do you plan on making this any sort of fun to use in play? Is anyone going to want to use Celerity if they have to make 3-5 reflexive checks to make sure they don't destroy themselves from the speed? Are they going to want to track a dozen modifiers to different types of actions?

    What's your idea to abstract this enough to be playable?

    Leave a comment:


  • Solomon Draak
    replied
    Actually, now that you make me notice... yes, it would be kinda cool. The vampire runs too fast and explodes.

    Seriously speaking.
    A vampire who uses very hight levels of Celerity should also have some Fortitude to withstand the extreme sollecitations.
    We can take in account the innate corpse-like resilience of vampires and the fact they don't die due decompression, organ failure ecc.

    I would say that Celerity 1-2 is ok, 3-4 inflicts a point of bashing damage and from 5 on the damage is lethal.
    No damage for vampires with Fortitude or Stamina 6+.


    What about penalties to their sense of balance from all the g-forces they're subjected too?
    That true too.
    But I think that through pratice a vampire can learn to deal with that.

    Mabye, penalties for vampires who just learned Celerity untill they had some months to pratice it with costance.

    Again, vampires have no physiology to speak of, so they would get much less dizziness than a mortal.

    A poor ghoul whould have an harder time.
    Last edited by Solomon Draak; 01-15-2022, 08:54 PM.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    Because you're applying the logic of physics to supernatural powers extremely selectively.

    What about the force on the vampire's leg bones from slamming into the ground hard enough to propel them at 650 mph? Do they go temporarily blind from their eyeballs deforming from such extreme accelerations and speeds? What about penalties to their sense of balance from all the g-forces they're subjected too?

    If you want to make vampire powers obey the laws of physics, then they need to obey the laws of physics, not just the ones you want to apply. If you want Celerity to do more damage because it's cool, don't bring physics into it.

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  • Solomon Draak
    replied
    I just find hard to believe that a vampire who runs against a target at 20 miles / hour is the same as a vampire-projectile that travels at 650 m /hr .

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    This just circles back to:

    1) The books just don't support these as how things "should" be based on how the setting is described.

    2) Changing the Disciplines to suit your tastes is a much bigger balancing act than you seem interested in.

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  • Solomon Draak
    replied
    Fortitude shouldn't help with lifting speed but, in my opinion, should mean the vampire's body is harder and hurts more when it hits something.
    Celerity should do extra damage if you charge or do a flying kick.

    Leave a comment:

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