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  • #46
    Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
    Outwit a demon is a thing.

    ...

    Making other people pay for your gain do not require to outwit the demon, it requires outwitting other people - which is a bit easier.
    Umm, like, saying you never once use the word, is like, wrong.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Solomon Draak View Post
      You are clearly trolling. Mabye you are just trying to get this thread closed.
      Solomon, you should seriously stop accusing people of trolling just because you're annoyed with their reactions. If you seriously have an issue with what someone posted, flag it. But throwing this accusation the way you're doing may end up with you being flagged.

      And no one here is trying to "prove" that the infernalist is always at a loss more than you are trying to "prove" that a demon will accept a deal without trying to betray the other party later. This is one reason people get annoyed at you in the first place, when they don't agree with your assumptions you just press the matter as if everyone else was just ignorant or dishonest without engaging with the possibility of their disagreement being valid.

      You want to roll with a sensible deal between an infernalist and a demon where the demon leave you alone for the sake of you getting a steady stream of souls it somehow can't get by itself? This is fine, you can do that. This is not the assumption of the setting, neither the trope the setting based the demons that grant Investments. And with the kind of demon the setting presents, other people here don't see this idea as interesting or credible. That's fine and won't stop you from doing it anyway, so stop demanding that people agree with you.

      On your actual questions, people answered them more than once already. My last answer, by the way, was regardless of how you run the demon.


      #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
      #AutismPride
      She/her pronouns

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      • #48

        I think that misrepresenting my post was a form of trolling, if a subtle one.
        ​But since I take in account your opinions monteparnas and consider you a reasonable person, I'll consider that I can be wrong on the subject.

        About infernalism being an alwais losing bet, there is the description of an ( apparently? ) VERY successful infernalist archetipe in The Path of Screams. It's the Usurer, page 58. The text says precisely those words: "surrounded by midasian splendor, the usurer has made a wonderfoul deal. These days he purchases his luxuries with the souls of others " ( does it reminds anyone of my argument about making other people pay the price ) and next page: "Sooner or later, one way or another, the rich man ( or woman ) recovers his investment, pays it off with interest, and occasionally even recovers his soul if he lives long enough to do so."

        Now this is what I call "striking a mutually profittable deal with a demon" and is in the core book of infernalism.

        Originally posted by Sultanabdal View Post
        We don't need to prove that infernalism is always at loss; the books say that infernalism is always at loss; this is the setting. If you want a homebrew setting where you outwit demons left and right and gain investments, you are welcome to do so. Try reading a few of the books about infernalism where they talk about Dark Thaumaturgy, or something like the Brujah Trilogy, and see if winning against demons is realistic in the setting as written.

        For what you just said about outwitting other people to pay, it's covered in Sins of the Blood; there's a Sabbat pack that tells people exactly that (we go do the actual summoning and negotiation, you reap the benefits), luring people into making deals by proxy. Guess what, turns out it doesn't matter if you make deals by proxy, a deal is a deal, only you no longer have any control over the negotiation. The Sabbat pack is actually only pretending to be negotiating with demons, when it's actually making the worst possible deals to sell your soul to their masters. You see, you just thought about something seemingly clever, but it turns out to not be the case at all.

        And there we go. I just proved you, using the core book of infernalism, that both your arguments are just plain wrong. We have an explicit, precise example of an Infernalism who does exactly those two things that you says are impossible ( and you said that the settings says they're impossible, you didn't just express your opinion ).
        And it's not a single, exceptional character: it's an archetipe, which means there is a whole category of infernalists who follow that path.

        I am fully justified in getting a bit upset when people misrepresent my arguments and tell me that is impossible to do something that the core book explicitly says is possible and has already been done more than once ( the phrasing "occasionally even recovers his soul" is clear: it happens and not a single time ).

        Thanks for the answers to anyone.
        Sorry if I got paranoied.

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