Vicissitude, tissue harvesting and alteration of mass

[Solomon Draak]

I noticed that getting anything from Vicissitude requires losing something. Beside game balance I can easily explain it with the law of conservation of mass. The Discipline can alter and shape the body of the subject but not change the complessive mass, I guess.

Also, if it was possible to alter the overall mass with Vicissitude, the creation of war-ghoul by fusing many ghouls together would be wasteful.

So, idea.

Since harvesting and keeping alive living tissues is possible through modern science, and Ghouls can regenerate body parts, could muscular and bone tissues be surgically harvested, regrowth through Vitae by the ghoul, then transplanted and arranged with Vicissitude to create a larger and bulkier ghoul?

[Kammerer]

In old VtM: combining flesh was possible using a level 6 power.
In V5: RAW, there's nothing for it, but I would allow complex procedures (and warghoul crafting) via the Project mechanic.

[Solomon Draak]

Combining flesh meets the very serious problem of rejection from the immunitary system. That problem could be solved by an auto transplant.

[Dogstar]

Combining flesh meets the very serious problem of rejection from the immunitary system. That problem could be solved by an auto transplant.

_Vicissitude_ completely gets rid of the very serious problem of rejection by the immune system _because it's magic_


Honestly I feel like the original question, and many of the others recently asked are just there to start an argument. It also reminds me of the sort of metagaming that used to be so prevalent e.g.

D&D Metagamer - My Fighter is going to mix sulfur, charcoal and saltpetre in a big barrel, set it on fire, and roll it into the orc camp
Gullible GM - Wow, your fighter really lucks out, the mix just happens to be highly explosive and kills all the Orcs, you get all the xp
Other Players - W.T.F...
Gullible GM - You can't argue with real science

[Solomon Draak]

Honestly I feel like the original question, and many of the others recently asked are just there to start an argument.

No, I just have some ideas I like to discuss.
I like the idea of combine science and magic to get a sinergy and greater results. Like getting the results of Vicissitude 6 using Vicissitude 3 AND high level medicine, plenty of Resources and much more time.

- - -

If you think I just want to argue, just ignore my posts. Answer a question who you think is not serious is called "trolling".

[monteparnas]

As many Disciplines, Vicissitude already handwaves most complications with magic, so there's little that actual medical knowledge can improve in the already existing effects.

What may be a valid exploration is either the opening of new avenues of exploration as biology reveals possibilities unthinkable by the old practitioners before, or the development of processes that make a result viable at lower levels. For example, your idea could result in a very slow and consuming process to create a Vozhd, but one that requires level 3 instead of 6. It may and should be less efficient, but it is workable far easier. Even, given the right circumstances, "mass produced".

[Solomon Draak]

A Vozhd is made from fused souls, not only fused bodies. It's a bit too ambitious in my opinion.
I was thinking at something more simple, a ghoul with enhanced strength, durability and mass.

By the way, it's an idea I stolen from Cyberpunk.

Grafted Muscle: This is vat-grown organic muscle. It functions identically to natural muscle. Grafted muscle will enhance both appearance and strength. It can be combined with other forms of bioware, such as muscle and bone lace. When properly grafted, vat grown muscle is completely indistinguishable from natural muscle. It is a common component of biosculpting.

[Dogstar]

I like the idea of combine science and magic to get a sinergy and greater results.

That's exactly what metagaming is - using player knowledge (i.e. science) to argue with and bend the game rules (which are abstracted for good reasons) in favour of the player's desired outcome.

Metagamers are generally speaking not fun to play with and can't be argued with because they will use all the cheap debating tools at their disposal to try and get their own way, they're not actually interested in the answers, only in getting to their end goal.

[Solomon Draak]

If you think that you shouldn't keep posting on my thread.

[Sultanabdal]

Vicissitude can work just fine without scientific knowledge; effective use of it obviously requires knowledge of anatomy, but none of its ancient practicioners knew about how cells work or how the nervous system functions or such. The way Vicissitude most likely works, in the same way that the other shapeshifting Disciplines work, would be to push its target into the Near Umbra by burning blood, and willing the transformations into place. What happens there is no longer a physical transformation; if a Tzimisce wants to give itself an extra eye, it would will the organ into place, while physically kneading the flesh there in just the right way (Body Crafts). Whatever actual physiological changes that happen (new blood vessels, nerves, etc.) magically form to support that function. Of course, there's a lot of configurations that wouldn't be physically supportable at all, and the subject would just expire. Tzimisce who sculpt spectacular changes have figured out which way to proceed with such, ex. step 1, open the torso, step 2, nudge this here, step 3, nudge this there (Body Crafts). This would be why Tzimisce decorate havens with living tapestries and such; it actually is a challenge that a random neonate wouldn't be able to pull off, and is a demonstration of difficult mastery that would impress their peers.

[monteparnas]

A Vozhd is made from fused souls, not only fused bodies. It's a bit too ambitious in my opinion.
I was thinking at something more simple, a ghoul with enhanced strength, durability and mass.

You sometimes have a noticeable difficulty abstracting from examples.

The point isn't to define if the end result is exactly like a Vozhd, and the reasoning may be applied to several other ideas someone may come up with. The point is that you can use factoids about anatomy and biology to think of new effects, and one way to do so is to create "cheaper" versions of other powers, versions that have greater narrative costs and some drawbacks to compensate being available at low power levels.

Use the Vozhd as a starting point, develop something mechanically similar and worry about its metaphysical explanations later or if you should call it a Vozhd at all, that is secondary to the discussion.

If you think that you shouldn't keep posting on my thread.

That's an unreasonable solicitation. The thread isn't "yours", as long as they keep civilized enough anyone has a right to present their arguments about the value of the question itself.

But more importantly, Dogstar explanation does touch a relevant subject to understand why the rules are how they are.

It is a wrong assumption to take the rules as ignoring science then add it to increase their effects. The rules are abstractions, and they must always be assumed to take into account the laws of nature for the setting, regardless of how the characters understand those laws. The use of real life knowledge to propose new effects is valid, but it shouldn't be used to just bend the rules into doing things they're not meant to do. They're meant to do as they do for a reason.

On this subject, though, this is probably relatively fine. I don't see a reason for Vicissitude not being able to make cyberpunk-like flesh grafts. It should be a complex and expensive endeavor, because growing human tissue in such quantities outside the body is extremely complex and expensive, but is certainly doable. It may have unforeseeable side-effects due to excess of mass, I would consider adapting some rules from Mage on the subject of increasing traits.

[Kammerer]

Combining flesh meets the very serious problem of rejection from the immunitary system. That problem could be solved by an auto transplant.

Vicissitude powers as they are written can not add new flesh. They only work with what's already there. If you cut off a ghoul's arm - you can not put it back using Vicissitude. You can do it using a pre-V5 level 6 power. You (arguably) can do it as a Project in V5. If you are using a level 6 power than the immune rejection problem is not there, because you are using advanced magic. If you are doing it as a Project, then you are in the homebrew territory and make an argument to your ST that using native flesh should be easier and reduce the Project's difficulty.