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Some Disciplines questions[V20]

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  • #16
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Little off but I do have some of my own questions.

    As monteparnas mentioned, Aura perception is really hard to pull off (difficulty 8). Is this meant to be made easier by heightened senses reducing the difficulty of perception rolls?

    Does a command like "forget" work for Command in V20.

    Do you allow Awareness talent to sense that something's wrong when someone is Obfuscated, even if they don't have the Auspex levels to compete with the Obfuscate? I believe that , provided a fairly difficult roll, they should at least feel off or uneasy with no indication why.

    Can Ugly bloodlines benefit from the Impressive Visage ritual (ROTB* 146)
    As adambeyoncelowe I think Aura Perception is too clearly dif 8 despite Auspex, not before it. But I also agree that it wouldn't be too big a problem if you apply the reduction, although 8-Auspex (in practice 6 to 3 for High Gens) seems too low. Another option would be to make the application of the benefit somewhat conditional, then you go with your gut feeling and the bigger benefit won't be a problem either.

    "Forget" has three problems. First of all the question of ambiguity, although context can certainly help, but even if the application of the command was narrow (lets say, it only works on the last 5 minutes of memory), the command itself isn't (the target doesn't know that you mean that, so it is ambiguous even if only one interpretation actually works).

    Second and more relevant, despite the distinction between short term and long term memory, the fact remains that memory itself isn't a thing that we can control that way. It is possible to control ones own memory to certain extent, but not something anyone can do at any time, so I would lean towards it not working like that.

    Third and more important, though, it is simply that memory control is explicitly covered by higher levels, so even simpler forms of it I don't think should be achievable with just one command.

    But, context matters, and language is nuanced. The word "forget" is frequently used to tell someone to pretend to forget something, pay it no attention and never touch the subject. This is a valid Command on its own, and I see no reason for it to not apply if the context makes your intended meaning clear, and this isn't especially hard here.

    I see no reason for ugly bloodlines to not benefit from the ritual, since as you said, they already benefit from Obfuscate. This is not the player trying to erase the Weakness from the sheet, but to burn resources just to be able to function in society, which is what their Ugliness actually do.

    ‚ÄčOn the Awareness matter, I stand again with adambeyoncelowe. As long as it is an indistinct feeling, go for it. It is enough for the character to be alert and look for more clues on what's happening, without completely messing with a power that shouldn't be countered by just an Ability roll.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      Right, ROTB, I'll make the fix.

      As for Forget
      Human memory is believed to work a little like computers. There's a separation of short term memory and long term memory. "Forget" could conceivably delete the uncertain amount of short term memory that has yet to be encoded into long term memory.


      Nosferatu can increase their appearance with Obfuscate, and IV is temporary (and costly; a whole point of virgin blood? We gotta find a lot of virgins to keep that sustainable)
      But wouldn't 'delete all your short term memory' require more than just 'forget'? The RAW specifically call out ambiguous meanings as failing or taking longer. I don't think it's a reasonable use of the power.


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      • #18
        I have to ask another question, how do you guys handle Obfuscate 3 in case someone touches you? lets say player a suspects player b is using Obfuscate 3, can he try to touch him to wear off the effect? how does that work?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by burnforme View Post
          I have to ask another question, how do you guys handle Obfuscate 3 in case someone touches you? lets say player a suspects player b is using Obfuscate 3, can he try to touch him to wear off the effect? how does that work?
          Not like that at all. Those questions are all addressed in Obfuscate itself in no uncertain terms, but I'll try to make them even more clear.

          Obfuscate does not conceal the user. It doesn't even clouds other people's perceptions. Instead, it deceives the mind into refusing to acknowledge the Vampire.

          What it means is that no one affected will touch the vampire unless forced to. If Player A tries, he'll miss on purpose every time. Player B will need to avoid contact according to the circumstances, like not bumping into the other, but A will never be able to force such contact to begin with while under Obfuscate's effect.

          The caveat, though, is what gave A the idea to begin with? If B did something to draw attention, then a roll is called for immediately, no matter how subtle, although the subtlety may affect the difficulty. Some actions cease Obfuscate completely at once, either just for one person or for everyone around. Touching may very well be one of those.

          But that's it. It's all covered by the rolls already present in the Discipline's description. Outside that, a person affected is incapable of forcing themselves against the effect, which compensates the weaknesses of Obfuscate (not working on electronics or at great distances).


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          • #20
            Thanks i thought this only works for second level Obfuscate, as for why player A does this, perhaps A thinks that a certain person might not be who he claims to be. so all of these would be gone in case of someone using Obfuscate regardless of level. i think i got it.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by burnforme View Post
              Thanks i thought this only works for second level Obfuscate, as for why player A does this, perhaps A thinks that a certain person might not be who he claims to be. so all of these would be gone in case of someone using Obfuscate regardless of level. i think i got it.
              Basically. While level 2 makes some details clearer, this explanation is on the opening of the Discipline.

              On the matter of Mask of a Thousand Faces, there's no roll on the part of the observer because the vampire already did it at the Discipline's activation. As long as B got enough successes, A simply can't force the power to fail, their brain simply accepts the image at face value and since there's no detail about physical interaction on the Mask (and old editions had examples of users keeping it even during sex), there's no reason to think physical interaction of any sort would dismiss it.

              There is a caveat, though. At no point it forces the observer to believe. A can't see through the Mask, and no action will do so. But it doesn't means A can't suspect and even be certain that it is an use of the Mask. Notice the mechanics on the Mask talk several times about the risks of being caught by odd behavior, yet it gives no rules on that. It basically means that the rules are acknowledging such situations, but at no point the power forces confidence on the viewer, just the illusion itself.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                Basically. While level 2 makes some details clearer, this explanation is on the opening of the Discipline.

                On the matter of Mask of a Thousand Faces, there's no roll on the part of the observer because the vampire already did it at the Discipline's activation. As long as B got enough successes, A simply can't force the power to fail, their brain simply accepts the image at face value and since there's no detail about physical interaction on the Mask (and old editions had examples of users keeping it even during sex), there's no reason to think physical interaction of any sort would dismiss it.

                There is a caveat, though. At no point it forces the observer to believe. A can't see through the Mask, and no action will do so. But it doesn't means A can't suspect and even be certain that it is an use of the Mask. Notice the mechanics on the Mask talk several times about the risks of being caught by odd behavior, yet it gives no rules on that. It basically means that the rules are acknowledging such situations, but at no point the power forces confidence on the viewer, just the illusion itself.
                Thanks.

                If i might ask what does Daydreaming aura mean in Auspex table? i guess someone under the powers like Dementation can have Psychotic aura but i am not sure i understand DayDreaming here.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by burnforme View Post
                  Thanks.

                  If i might ask what does Daydreaming aura mean in Auspex table? i guess someone under the powers like Dementation can have Psychotic aura but i am not sure i understand DayDreaming here.
                  Daydreaming means they are literally in a day dream. Probably focused on things away from the present. Perhaps imagining things. Temporarily distracted by some interior world.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by burnforme View Post
                    If i might ask what does Daydreaming aura mean in Auspex table? i guess someone under the powers like Dementation can have Psychotic aura but i am not sure i understand DayDreaming here.
                    Auspex's primary function isn't to find out supernatural interference, it is to evaluate mental state. Most people with a psychotic aura isn't under Dementation or anything, just going through a mundane psychotic episode. Trying to tie each result to a given form of supernatural intervention is already to miss the point since noticing this is its own thing.

                    Instead, with aura reading the point with those results is to find use to the information itself. A daydreaming person is unfocused to begin with, and coupled with other emotional readings you may have even more data to draw conclusions and understand what the person is going through.

                    Now, this is more complex to wrap your mind around than it should, that's why both VtR and V5 changed Auspex to a question-based approach, but the point is to gather information about the person, not about magic at play. This information is naturally harder to use, but useful on a greater range of situations.


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