Paths of Enlightenment in the Camarilla [V20]

[Hades]

So I was reading on the lore for V5 and I'm not a fan of about 90% of it (and not a fan of 99% of the new mechanics but that's besides the point), but I like the idea of the Lasombra joining the Camarilla.

With so many Lasombra following Paths of Enlightenment (like the Prince of Milan, Giangaleazzo) would these Paths then disseminate among other Camarilla vampires?

[Manfr]

Highly likely, also considering the spread of Blood Cults.

Probably, many "young" Princes, which were educated into persecution against diverging moralities and Noddism, would still look at them with disdain, but others, like Elders and occultists, could be enthused.

Honourable Accord could easily find asylum within the Camarilla, after being denounced as Forsaken by the Sabbat zealots.

It should be one of the driving dynamics of political tension in nuCamarilla: of course, not every Path could be suitable for unlife in a Masquerade-abiding society.

[MyWifeIsScary]

In V20? No. The Cam is Pro-humanity and, though some paths might slip under the radar (honourable accord) or reach some level of tacit acceptance (Settites are useful friends to have, Typhonists are fine so long as they keep it to themselves) The Cam must generally maintain the premise that Humanity is the chosen path because it's the best for the masquerade (and "Maintaining the masquerade" is a great premise for shafting neonates and rivals in a way that seems legaly justified). The Cam as an overall body doesn't have much sway over individual prices or cities so some exceptions may exist, but for the most part, it's convert or die, or at the very least shut up and don't spread that shit.

[Manfr]

Yes, you still need a V5esque setting, at least in direction

[adambeyoncelowe]

Some older vamps may still be on Roads, of course. Though not openly!

[MyWifeIsScary]

Yes, you still need a V5esque setting, at least in direction

Bruh, he's not talking V5. He doesn't like V5. We're not talking nuCam, we're talking Cam with a few more Lasombra. There's nothing about that requiring V5ification.


V20 wise, there's always been a few Lasombra hiding among the cam, but if Sabbat Lasombra were to defect, they'd be under a lot of scrutiny and would need to live by the ideals of the Camarilla. IE they'd probably need to actually try harder than most to be humane. Relatively speaking the Lasombra are filled with very agressive and power hungry individuals, and their inclusion could destablize a city, so Ventrue and other lovers of the status quo are likely to find any reason to expel the Lasombra that they can, unless of course they've got a threat these new Lasombra can be pointed at.

The Camarilla sees Gehenna cults as BadWrong. Secret cults? The Prince can be a member, but it can't be known that he's a member! The Lasombra are also drawn to religion (that whole dark void thing really puts the fear of god in them), they're suspect.

Lasombra in the Cam are on thin ice. They'll thrive in a conflict, but smart vampires don't want conflict.

[Reasor]

Whether it's controlling in order to preserve the Masquerade or it preserves the Masquerade to justify being controlling, I think we can say in good faith that the Cam in any edition of the game effectively has one set of laws for its small community of trusted ancient elders and another for the common riff-raff.

In V20 in particular, the reader is told in multiple books that mention the topic that vampires on Paths are creepy, intense, and wrong-feeling even by vampire standards; even the ones whose Paths make them polite company for other vampires are going to draw attention when they're rubbing elbows with their food at the club. I'd see the Cam absolutely refusing to tolerate this in anyone who isn't an insider's insider. Like, Justicar or Justicar's favorite Archon, at bare minimum age and status.

[Heavy Arms]

I think part of the problem is that the Cam's hard line anti-Path stance largely got written into the game before a lot of the more Cam friendly Paths were written. Revised and V20 both already have the idea that Paths are followed in the Cam on some level, even if not openly, or with extreme suspicion unless a well established Elder/etc.

I don't think you need to go full V5 (as there was already a significant population of Lasobmra in the Cam as it was). Given there's already a few groups in the Cam that shouldn't struggle to find access to some Path, you just need a few of them to gain enough prestige in the Cam to push for some reforms around specific Paths; especially under the sale that it's better to put a vampire on a Path that's compatible with the Cam's ideals than lose them to other factions because strict Humanity isn't working for them. It's not hard to then turn Paths into part of the Cam power structure where young vampires seeking something other than Humanity just end up grinding away in service of a different set of Elders than those seeking other interests within the organization.

[Manfr]

Bruh, he's not talking V5. He doesn't like V5. We're not talking nuCam, we're talking Cam with a few more Lasombra. There's nothing about that requiring V5ification.


V20 wise, there's always been a few Lasombra hiding among the cam, but if Sabbat Lasombra were to defect, they'd be under a lot of scrutiny and would need to live by the ideals of the Camarilla. IE they'd probably need to actually try harder than most to be humane. Relatively speaking the Lasombra are filled with very agressive and power hungry individuals, and their inclusion could destablize a city, so Ventrue and other lovers of the status quo are likely to find any reason to expel the Lasombra that they can, unless of course they've got a threat these new Lasombra can be pointed at.

The Camarilla sees Gehenna cults as BadWrong. Secret cults? The Prince can be a member, but it can't be known that he's a member! The Lasombra are also drawn to religion (that whole dark void thing really puts the fear of god in them), they're suspect.

Lasombra in the Cam are on thin ice. They'll thrive in a conflict, but smart vampires don't want conflict.

Well, V20 is more ruleset than setting, it's metaplot-agnostic.

With just some Lasombra defecting (like, let's say, Kings and Queens of the Night) you are probably not going to get that many Path followers into the Cam to achieve pro-Paths reform.

Camarilla's acceptance of Blood Cults in V5 is largely the result of the rise of Lilins and Church of Caine, along with mass hysteria and rise of Methuselah cults. All of these plot points are somewhat connected to the Sabbat weakening.

In V20 default setting, with the Sabbat still going strong, Paths are too much associated with the Enemy and the Lasombra more likely to defect are those who probably will mostly be on Humanity (at lower levels perhaps). You also wouldn't probably get enough Path priests defecting, to make the conversion to Paths sustainable.

You would probably see some secret acceptance among Elders for Power and Inner Voice and Honorable Accord, and greater numbers of Entelechy followers, but institutional incentives to Path tolerance are still low.

You might get some more open acceptance of Paths, while still having the Sabbat big, if the Camarilla simultaneously accepts factions of the Lasombra, Setites, Assamites and maybe Ravnos.

At that point, you might have enough traction, and diversity of Paths, to get them somewhat accepted.

[Ragged Robin]

Bruh, he's not talking V5. He doesn't like V5. We're not talking nuCam, we're talking Cam with a few more Lasombra. There's nothing about that requiring V5ification.


V20 wise, there's always been a few Lasombra hiding among the cam, but if Sabbat Lasombra were to defect, they'd be under a lot of scrutiny and would need to live by the ideals of the Camarilla. IE they'd probably need to actually try harder than most to be humane. Relatively speaking the Lasombra are filled with very agressive and power hungry individuals, and their inclusion could destablize a city, so Ventrue and other lovers of the status quo are likely to find any reason to expel the Lasombra that they can, unless of course they've got a threat these new Lasombra can be pointed at.

The Camarilla sees Gehenna cults as BadWrong. Secret cults? The Prince can be a member, but it can't be known that he's a member! The Lasombra are also drawn to religion (that whole dark void thing really puts the fear of god in them), they're suspect.

Lasombra in the Cam are on thin ice. They'll thrive in a conflict, but smart vampires don't want conflict.

Its probably worth noting that defecting to the carmarilla is a level 1 sin for both path of night (repenting) and power and inner voice (giving up power) the two most common lasombra Sabbat Paths so its pretty likely most path lasombra stuck with the sect.

[Vilenecromancer]

Both in v5 and v20 paths of enlightenment are, mostly, corruptions of the old roads. In fact, paths were specifically made by the Sabbat in order to stave off the beast while rejecting their humanity.

The Camarilla however reinforces humanity, primarily because it's easier to control humane neonates then those on a path. They'll claim it's about the masquerade, which is fair considering path followers can't Blush, but it's almost exclusively about control.

So to answer the question, it's unlikely. The Camarilla will discourage it, and path following Lasombra will be very unlikely to share. Now that said, there could be a movement in the Anarchs, as the few non-Sabbat Tzimisce are defecting to their cause. Tzimisce, while just as unlikely to share, are more likely to given situational circumstance.

[Karos]

Its probably worth noting that defecting to the carmarilla is a level 1 sin for both path of night (repenting) and power and inner voice (giving up power) the two most common lasombra Sabbat Paths so its pretty likely most path lasombra stuck with the sect.

That assumes they weren't willing to suffer that small stain in order to survive, Lasombra are pragmatists rather than idealists in most cases. There are also ways of rationalising the decision to leave alongside switching to the Camarilla. Path of Night might leave the Sabbat in order to survive but not renounce their acts in the sect (at least if they're not well known) and then lie by omission. Path of Power & the Inner Voice meanwhile could say that the Sabbat was rapidly losing power, it was spiralling and they'd ultimately lose what little power it had left. (Joining the Camarilla and seizing power in an international organisation is more effective.)

Personally, I think a fair few elders will stick with their paths, they might in-turn teach them to their childer or loyal subordinates down the centuries. That's how paths will enter the Camarilla were I to wager, perhaps as part of one of the many new Blood Cults, perhaps on a personal basis. The Anarchs meanwhile are an open space for paths, the idea of Anarch communes springing up focussed on teaching and practising certain paths is very intriguing.

[Hades]

@Karos

I agree with this. I think some Paths (Honorable Accord, Power and Inner Voice especially) would find quite the home in the Camarilla and could possibly create some secret societies around them, even if lip service is still paid to Humanity.

[Karos]

@Karos

I agree with this. I think some Paths (Honorable Accord, Power and Inner Voice especially) would find quite the home in the Camarilla and could possibly create some secret societies around them, even if lip service is still paid to Humanity.

Definitely, small secret societies that make themselves useful to certain elders for protection, seem very fitting. You know a gentleman's club of Ventrue that follow Honourable Accord and are the Primogens biggest backers.

[Ragged Robin]

That assumes they weren't willing to suffer that small stain in order to survive, Lasombra are pragmatists rather than idealists in most cases. There are also ways of rationalising the decision to leave alongside switching to the Camarilla. Path of Night might leave the Sabbat in order to survive but not renounce their acts in the sect (at least if they're not well known) and then lie by omission. Path of Power & the Inner Voice meanwhile could say that the Sabbat was rapidly losing power, it was spiralling and they'd ultimately lose what little power it had left. (Joining the Camarilla and seizing power in an international organisation is more effective.)

Personally, I think a fair few elders will stick with their paths, they might in-turn teach them to their childer or loyal subordinates down the centuries. That's how paths will enter the Camarilla were I to wager, perhaps as part of one of the many new Blood Cults, perhaps on a personal basis. The Anarchs meanwhile are an open space for paths, the idea of Anarch communes springing up focussed on teaching and practising certain paths is very intriguing.

A small stain is something of an understatement, a rank 1 sin is the emotional equivelant of feeding a child to its parents alive. With night I don't really think you could wrangle around repentance that way anymore than you can wrangle around any sin, you can't rationalise away murder as a humanity even of he totally had it coming afterall. Looking further at night it actually gets worse as defecting to the carmarilla is a sin on at least 1,2, 5 and 7. With 2 and 5 being a nightly issue.

Powers and inner voice is a little better but again I don't think the path will accept becoming a ventrue bootlicker on the possibility you might be get power later on. (Unlikely anyway as the clan just discredited itself in leadership roles vs the ventrue in a truly historic manner). 2 is going to be a problem interacting with other lasombra indefinatly as is 6. 2 might even be enough to cause a wassail as you buckle under a catastrophic internal Paradox.


I can see nocturnal redemption being a good option for defectors. If anything it meshes better with carmarilla than Sabbat.