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How would kindred react to a vampire running a farm with animal, and crops?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    This seems more like the actions of a Brujah as I doubt I'd be so insecure about my vampiredom to comment on someone living the equivalent of organic farming.


    I don't know have you ever seen ordinary westerners respond to vegans? Now imagine you're the average Camarilla Vampire, you're hovering around humanity 5, you've experienced one too many betrayals, you're cynical and envious of any alternative unlifestyles and you probably feel you've worked too hard to get where you are now to give up and start growing crops. For an appropriate modern analogy: The Value of your house decreases when other houses start popping up around your area: If you're a homeowner, you're an investor, and in the interest of keeping your investment's value you best not let others think they can simply not buy into the neighbourhood or build houses wherever and whenever they want. Economically speaking, if you've got Domain, your Domain would be devalued if any schmuck could just start a farm. You don't want that to happen, so targeting the Farmer is a good thing.

    And if we're killing people for nightwork on a farm, we've officially reached an area where the Prince has to be overthrown.

    Who says the prince has anything to do with it? Maybe you want the farm. Pretense. It's all about pretense. That and honestly, you've probably found yourself at this farm because you've heard rumours. What's the chance of you randomly coming across such a farm otherwise?

    Originally posted by Hello View Post


    1) 99% of vampires would do anything to survive another night, they probably wont care what they have to do to survive, if that means wadding through sewage, they would definately do that. Plus whos going to care that a vampire runs a farm?
    Sewerage probably doesn't bother vampires like it does people; even if you push shit into an open wound, it's not going to cause an infection. Hell, a Vampire doesn't even need to breath, so the smell is going to be less of an issue even if you don't buy into the idea that "shit's less offensive to vampires because there's no biological benefit to being disgusted by it".

    Eating animal blood, on the otherhand, is explicitly awful while consuming human blood is divinely euphoric. Human blood is like "Cocaine, but only the positives" while Animal blood is like drinking piss.


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    • #17
      All I know is that animal blood is bland, I don't now about the piss part.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        I don't know have you ever seen ordinary westerners respond to vegans? Now imagine you're the average Camarilla Vampire, you're hovering around humanity 5, you've experienced one too many betrayals, you're cynical and envious of any alternative unlifestyles and you probably feel you've worked too hard to get where you are now to give up and start growing crops. For an appropriate modern analogy: The Value of your house decreases when other houses start popping up around your area: If you're a homeowner, you're an investor, and in the interest of keeping your investment's value you best not let others think they can simply not buy into the neighbourhood or build houses wherever and whenever they want. Economically speaking, if you've got Domain, your Domain would be devalued if any schmuck could just start a farm. You don't want that to happen, so targeting the Farmer is a good thing.
        I think the term you are looking for is entitled millennial or younger first world person who isn't used to working for a living.

        One of the first things you learn in a truly predatory environment is to keep your mouth shut. Be it in prison, a war zone, or just a particularly aggressive dojo, you watch and listen, rather than spout judgements. If some else has a survival strategy that seems to be working, what you do is figure out if it is worth emulating rather than throwing a hipster outrage fit.

        As far as property value goes, that over reaction to the concept of value loss only applies if you are very young. After 20+ years of undeath you have to start working through holding companies and other 3rd parties to hide your age discrepancy, especially if you stay in the same city the entire time. Once you get to that level you have been through the highs and lows of property markets and just ride it out, especially since you know better than to invest in just one property. Of course, if you own property IRL, you quickly find out that most cities have zoning laws regarding farms and farm animals. Which means if it was legal to set up, this kindred farm wouldn't be the only farm in town and thus cause a value loss. In some cities with more hippy leanings, adding a farm would be considered socially responsible.

        But even with zoning laws being a thing, there are ways around that. You could just as easily set up a "Research building" in an industrial park that specializes in hydroponics and low carbon footprint livestock techniques. All of that is fancy talk for a couple floors worth of indoor gardens and one floor of livestock for you to feed on. No real research is conducted, but everyone is proud to have a green company in the neighborhood.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Hello View Post
          All I know is that animal blood is bland, I don't now about the piss part.
          I take it as a matter of generation.

          To high generation Cainites, animal blood is bland.

          To low generation Cainites, it's outright rancid.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Thoth View Post

            I think the term you are looking for is entitled millennial or younger first world person who isn't used to working for a living.

            One of the first things you learn in a truly predatory environment is to keep your mouth shut. Be it in prison, a war zone, or just a particularly aggressive dojo, you watch and listen, rather than spout judgements. If some else has a survival strategy that seems to be working, what you do is figure out if it is worth emulating rather than throwing a hipster outrage fit.

            As far as property value goes, that over reaction to the concept of value loss only applies if you are very young. After 20+ years of undeath you have to start working through holding companies and other 3rd parties to hide your age discrepancy, especially if you stay in the same city the entire time. Once you get to that level you have been through the highs and lows of property markets and just ride it out, especially since you know better than to invest in just one property. Of course, if you own property IRL, you quickly find out that most cities have zoning laws regarding farms and farm animals. Which means if it was legal to set up, this kindred farm wouldn't be the only farm in town and thus cause a value loss. In some cities with more hippy leanings, adding a farm would be considered socially responsible.

            But even with zoning laws being a thing, there are ways around that. You could just as easily set up a "Research building" in an industrial park that specializes in hydroponics and low carbon footprint livestock techniques. All of that is fancy talk for a couple floors worth of indoor gardens and one floor of livestock for you to feed on. No real research is conducted, but everyone is proud to have a green company in the neighborhood.
            Many counter-cultural movements create horror in the normal, ordinary folk who are invested in the current society. People want to fit in, someone who sticks out needs to be nailed down.
            You're right about keeping the mouth shut. I'm not suggesting anyone creates an outrage fit; you're a vampire, if someone's doing something wrong, you should encourage them. "never interrupt an enemy when he's making a mistake" to paraphrase Napoleon. You should remember than most vampires first think of every other vampire as competition and it's only good social bonds and necessity that keeps them from killing eachother: an outsider is automatically an enemy, and an outsider without much of a connection to the rest of kindred society is an easy target.
            The biggest problem I have with your post is the idea that value loss only applies to the very young; the elders simply have more territory and a great amount of sway over the neonates that currently cling to their heels. They do not want to lose influence with these neonates or give them the idea that they can simply opt-out of the jyhad. A neonate might feel some nagging insecurity seeing the farmer but an elder acutely knows what's at stake


            Vampires are, in most fields, are more inclined to be conservative than liberal. They are selectively chosen and then they are taught: Rather than thinking "what would I do?" you should be thinking "what should a parasite do". You may be open minded and tolerant but this is the World of Darkness.


            Originally posted by Hello View Post
            All I know is that animal blood is bland, I don't now about the piss part.
            It's disgusting in most sources.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              You should remember than most vampires first think of every other vampire as competition and it's only good social bonds and necessity that keeps them from killing each other: an outsider is automatically an enemy, and an outsider without much of a connection to the rest of kindred society is an easy target.
              Yes and no. Vampires have an existence that is more dangerous than what most people have today. But all you have to do is look to behavior patterns from the times where humans had worse lives. Anyone new draws suspicion or distrust until the locals get a feel for them, but at the same time not too much negativity is displayed lest the newcomer takes legitimate offense. It is always amusing to see how much good fences and a well armed populace makes for good manners.

              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              The biggest problem I have with your post is the idea that value loss only applies to the very young; the elders simply have more territory and a great amount of sway over the neonates that currently cling to their heels. They do not want to lose influence with these neonates or give them the idea that they can simply opt-out of the jyhad. A neonate might feel some nagging insecurity seeing the farmer but an elder acutely knows what's at stake
              It's not that Value loss only happens to the young, it is that only the young freak out about it. As a vampire you can simply wait for the market to bounce back. If I own a house, there is the amount I paid for it originally and there is the amount it is worth now several decades later. As long as the later number is higher than the former to any degree, everything is fine. If nothing else simply owning a building with an older property tax rate is worth a lot. But until you are going to sell the house, the numbers are all theoretical, rather than being real.

              Given enough time any vampire will eventually pay off the mortgage, and then have money left over to do upgrades to increase property value. Where property values actually affect vampires is in the rental market. If you own a half dozen homes beyond your own haven, then you pay attention to rental rates more than intrinsic property values because that essentially affects your Resources score. But if you are averaging about $2000 a month per rental house, you aren't going to freak out if some zoning changes means the local rents drop to $1,800 a month.

              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              Vampires are, in most fields, are more inclined to be conservative than liberal. They are selectively chosen and then they are taught: Rather than thinking "what would I do?" you should be thinking "what should a parasite do". You may be open minded and tolerant but this is the World of Darkness.
              I disagree with the Conservative vs. Liberal classification. I feel a better description would be Pragmatist vs. Hedonist since most vampire tend to fall into those camps more than modern political groups. The pragmatic want power, wealth, influence, and money to ensure their survival and will invest all of those things into achieving their goals. The Hedonists will go after all the same things, but will focus it on sensations, experiences, and avoiding boredom.

              In the modern social media age where people go onto tiktok and rant about other people's insensitivity about pronouns, identity, or whatever else is trending, it can be easy to mistake the mindset of a vampire who would just kill or mutilate you rather than letting you have your say as a Conservative, but in truth they are just playing by a different set of rules. If anything I would be willing to bet that most vampires beyond a certain age group consider most social media using mortals to be proto-malkavians given how spastic things are becoming.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                Many counter-cultural movements create horror in the normal, ordinary folk who are invested in the current society. People want to fit in, someone who sticks out needs to be nailed down.
                You're right about keeping the mouth shut. I'm not suggesting anyone creates an outrage fit; you're a vampire, if someone's doing something wrong, you should encourage them. "never interrupt an enemy when he's making a mistake" to paraphrase Napoleon. You should remember than most vampires first think of every other vampire as competition and it's only good social bonds and necessity that keeps them from killing eachother: an outsider is automatically an enemy, and an outsider without much of a connection to the rest of kindred society is an easy target.
                The biggest problem I have with your post is the idea that value loss only applies to the very young; the elders simply have more territory and a great amount of sway over the neonates that currently cling to their heels. They do not want to lose influence with these neonates or give them the idea that they can simply opt-out of the jyhad. A neonate might feel some nagging insecurity seeing the farmer but an elder acutely knows what's at stake

                Vampires are, in most fields, are more inclined to be conservative than liberal. They are selectively chosen and then they are taught: Rather than thinking "what would I do?" you should be thinking "what should a parasite do". You may be open minded and tolerant but this is the World of Darkness.

                It's disgusting in most sources.
                Amusingly, MyWifeIsScary, you actually just hit on why the Anarch Movement is so popular and powerful in my games. You have described especially the psychological process that goes into the fact that vampires are destined to resist the Camarilla and system t every turn.

                1. The first thing is that vampire society is intristically hostile to the majority of modern vampires identities. When you join vampire society, you automatically discover that you have no access to any of the rights or privileges you have as a member your home society. Presumption of innocence, due process, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and an immunity to the death penalty are right off the table.

                A vampire born in the past century is someone who is automatically alienated from the autocratic tyrannical society of the Camarilla model. Inherently, Camarilla society is counter-cultural to the ones that the majority of humans grow into. Even in more oppresisve societies, none are as Medieval as Camarilla.

                2. One of the differences in counter-culture movements is the contempt a lot of anarchists of today hold for the concept of "selling out" as a thing to hold in contempt. In movies like Reality Bites and Fight Club there's the idea that poverty and oppression are a choice. It's a very white middle and upper class viewpoint of "integrity vs. wealth." For the majority of the oppressed, the option to participate or not particpate in the corrupt capitalist system is not actually a choice at all.

                For the majority of Kindred, the Camarilla doesn't care about your loyalty because the majority of young Kindred are not needed or wanted. Every Kindred is competition for blood, resources, territory, or a potential threat to the Masquerade. The World of Darkness is overpopulated with vampires and the ideal situation would be to reduce the surplus population of them by about 80% to only the Elders and a handful of their Ancilla minions as well as fledgling toys.

                To use an in-universe example, if you're a Ventrue in Chicago that's not one of Lodin's brood, it doesn't matter that you are a fantastic Camarilla booster because they don't need the competition.

                3. Much of your position in vampire society is determined by factors outside of your control. Way back in Chicago by Night 1st Edition, there was an NPC called Gordon Keaton whp was a fascinating character concept. Basically, he was a Right Wing rich yuppie as well as natural toadie to the powerful. He was also a Caitiff created by a Brujah Anarch. Gordon was an Anarch NOT because he had any inclinations or freedom but because it was the only place he could have any chance at survival or power. Selling out his fellows wasn't even an option because even if he did, then he'd STILL be a Caitiff in the Camarilla.

                His personal politics and choices take a backseat to whatever protects and benefits him.


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                • #23
                  Thoth I think you make fair points.
                  Firstly, I think any vampire who comes across a farmer is going to have the Bias that the farmer is weak. Like IRL there's understandably a negative correlationship between vegans and gun ownership (but curiously and very counterintuitively, pro-life ideas go with gun ownership and not veganism) : A vampire on a farm has a decent chance of being there because they don't like violence, politicking and competition, and thus it may be assumed that they're less practiced in those fields and are thus an easy mark. If the vampire is really wasting their time doing fieldwork then it can also be assumed they haven't been accumulating many assets. Their vampire might even guess that the "vegan" diet might even have consequences on the vampire's physical development (As is done IRL, even though most vegans are healthier than your average beefeater). To put it simply, A vampire's biases are going to suggest that the farmer doesn't have a good fence and is well armed.

                  Second, Domain is very closely tied to status and is very good at leveraging favours, so while housing prices are only theoretical, Domain is not.

                  Your last point... I don't think that really gets to the crux of the issue. Vampire politics are... almost neoliberal; every social policy is designed to increase the power and wealth of the few at the top, while not getting into any costly rebellions, and vampires abuse the rules as pretext to get what they want.

                  @CTphipps
                  1:That is indeed an interesting outlook. However, I think you're putting far too much salt on the idea of "rights". Maybe that's the result of american brainwashing or something, but, perhaps moreso america than other places, justice has always been open to the highest bidder. The Cam just does justice on steroids. So long as you have a grip on the political reality, the Cam isn't that farfetched nor is it countercultural.

                  2: It's not selling out, it's called "getting embraced"

                  3:It's totally in your control to become a farmer. I don't see the relevance of your statement. Also, while we're here, I think the Cam hates Golconda persuers with the same rational I've discussed in this thread.

                  You have described especially the psychological process that goes into the fact that vampires are destined to resist the Camarilla and system t every turn.
                  Vampire society is a cult that controls your thoughts, sometimes very literally. There's really very little that can pull you out of that mindset AND allow you to live long.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    Thoth I think you make fair points.
                    Firstly, I think any vampire who comes across a farmer is going to have the Bias that the farmer is weak. Like IRL there's understandably a negative correlationship between vegans and gun ownership (but curiously and very counterintuitively, pro-life ideas go with gun ownership and not veganism) : A vampire on a farm has a decent chance of being there because they don't like violence, politicking and competition, and thus it may be assumed that they're less practiced in those fields and are thus an easy mark. If the vampire is really wasting their time doing fieldwork then it can also be assumed they haven't been accumulating many assets. Their vampire might even guess that the "vegan" diet might even have consequences on the vampire's physical development (As is done IRL, even though most vegans are healthier than your average beefeater). To put it simply, A vampire's biases are going to suggest that the farmer doesn't have a good fence and is well armed.
                    Ownership of a farm doesn't imply anything. A Gangrel that settles down on a farm with animals to feed from and mortal retainers isn't any better or worse off than a high power Giovanni CEO who purchases a cattle ranch and a tabaco farm. You are trying to force RPG stereotype reactions onto a vampiric society that doesn't function like other RPGs.

                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    Second, Domain is very closely tied to status and is very good at leveraging favours, so while housing prices are only theoretical, Domain is not.
                    Domain is a bad background because it can overlap other backgrounds with unintended repercussions. If the farm is also your Haven, then it isn't exactly Domain. Like wise you generally don't have infamy or status based on your feeding, short of diablerie or something like the Nagaraja flesh eating. Sure some vampires will make jokes or scoff at the idea of non-sentient diet but in truth your money is always good and if you have survived out of your neonate phase by doing this then that means you are probably not the push over that might appear to be.

                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    Your last point... I don't think that really gets to the crux of the issue. Vampire politics are... almost neoliberal; every social policy is designed to increase the power and wealth of the few at the top, while not getting into any costly rebellions, and vampires abuse the rules as pretext to get what they want.
                    So originally you called Vampires more conservative than liberal, and now are calling their politics neoliberal..... um can you make up your mind please?

                    If a vampire was a Viking, then they view women as capable warriors and deserved a glorious death on the battlefield just like any man. Flash forwards several centuries and the notion that women are a protected class and have no place on the battlefield. These days it is considered progressive at best, MRA Incel at worst to suggest that women deserve to be forced to sign up for selective service just like the men do on their 18th birthday.

                    We think of Conservative as traditional values, but by the previous timetable the "traditional values" meant a woman should be swinging an axe on the battlefield which would be progressive by today's standards. The problem with using such useless terms as our modern political jargon for vampires is that they have existed through so much time that they experienced rule set reversals and complete flips of social values. As such trying to put them in neat little political boxes is at best reductionist and at worst pointless. Unless of course you are wanting to run a game where all the "bad" vampires have a given political leaning and all the "good" vampires have the correct political leaning, which if it works for your game, have at it. But don't assume it applies to how the base line game functions.

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                    • #25
                      Neoliberals are conservative when it'd make more money, that's how they roll. The whole Neolib idea is based on doing what's popular to stay in control. Also Viking attitudes to women were more "help defend the home, maybe the camp" than "woah she's badass and equal to me I look forward to fighting alongside her". Besides these few egregious errors that bug me, the rest of your post... is of decreasing relevance and isn't properly linked to the topic.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Hello View Post
                        All I know is that animal blood is bland, I don't now about the piss part.

                        All the sources I can find ( Core books for 1st, 2nd, Rev, V20 and V5 ) describe it as bland and less fulfilling the whole piss and sewage take is either homebrew or somewhere in some more far flung supplements.......or possibly some of the dodgier VtM fiction.

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                        • #27
                          I thought as much. I doubt even a gangrel and nosferatu would lower themselves to drink piss.


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                          • #28
                            So while I vaguely remember a previous discussion about this that covered farming at a variety of scale, I want to start with the fact that the farm as described in this post sounds closer to the "hobby farm" end of the spectrum than "massive industrial farm"; I could be wrong about that assumption, apologies if I am. But while a massive industrial meat-farm is the sort of thing that could be regarded as a valuable Domain, a hobby farm out in the rural outskirts of town probably isn't. The industrial farm might attract vampiric contenders for Domain, the hobby farm probably won't.

                            I think that the question of whether or not the vampire farmer in question avoids human blood for ethical or pragmatic reasons is also relevant. Other Kindred are less likely to "take it personally" if the decision to mostly drink the blood of butchered animals is simply intended as a way of avoiding potential Masquerade breaches that could result from regularly hunting for human blood. I think the Camarilla in particular would respect that point of view, even if the vast majority of its membership would never be willing to do it.

                            I don't think I have ever come across the idea that the Camarilla is actively hostile towards Golcondites in any source material I have ever read. But then I didn't know for the longest time just how actively hostile the Cam was towards belief in Gehenna and the Antediluvians (not until I found out they tried to end Beckett's unlife just for discussing it as an academic, not even a true believer). But I don't really buy into the idea that any sizable majority of Camarilla or Anarch vampires are going to react to a non-human-blood-drinking farmer vampire with rabid hostility. I actually think the vegan comparison works against MyWifeIsScary's position because, in my experience, the most common response to veganism/vegetarianism (when it's not being aggressively pushed) is indifference or contemptuous amusement. Most people don't angrily froth over the existence of vegans, in my experience; they mock them. See "Carrot Juice is Murder" by the Arrogant Worms, or that CollegeHumour(?) video about the dude with the long red hair that pushes a meat-only diet the way that vegans are stereotypically depicted. And even when they get angry, it still tends more towards contemptuous and dismissive than violent.

                            Kind of like Thoth, I'm inclined to think that there would be a wide range of internal psychological/emotional responses, but I think the most common course of action among the Camarilla would be to ignore the vampire in question, assuming the hobby farm scenario. They might view it sympathetically, or with contempt, but they're probably not going to waste their time *doing* something unless there is some tangible gain from doing so. Anarchs I feel would be more likely to actively get involved in some fashion, because this hobby farm vampire seems more likely to be an underdog outside the Cam hierarchy. An industrial farm is more likely to be interfered with by both Anarchs and the Cam, because an industrial farm as a Domain is a significant source of wealth and therefore power/influence.

                            I think that members of the Sabbat would be the most likely, by far, to aggressively target a vampire pursuing this agenda as a matter of principle, because they view themselves as superior to humans and (in principle, if not in practice) are opposed to the concept of the Masquerade. Their crusader nature also makes them more likely candidates to try and express their disapproval of the situation violently.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Hello View Post
                              I thought as much. I doubt even a gangrel and nosferatu would lower themselves to drink piss.
                              In V5, Animalism has the power to make Animal Blood appetizing and fulfilling for much lower generations.

                              So there's a caveat.

                              They're the pee filter from Waterworld.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                                Putting myself into a vampire's shoes, I think I'd be pretty hostile.
                                Like I said, some vampires are dicks.

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