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What disciplines or blood sorcery paths do you think are overrated?

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  • What disciplines or blood sorcery paths do you think are overrated?

    *Disclaimer I read the books, but have not gotten the chance to play the game.

    While a lot of disciplines and blood sorcery paths that are incredibly cool. There are some that to me personally seem very situational, or are more trouble than they're worth.

    One of those powers for me would be necromancy, I read through a lot of the powers and they seem pretty situational. Raising zombies is a masquerade breach and they seem pretty worthless, ash path makes you vulnerable to beings who would hate you. Some others have said that schulper path is pretty dangerous since it can risk summoning a specter which is usually as strong as an elder kindred. I may be wrong, correct me below if I am.

    What powers do you think are overrated?
    Last edited by Hello; 03-08-2022, 07:39 PM.

  • monteparnas
    replied
    In the end, situational and trouble are the names of the game. Reading and navigating situations is more important than anything else, and so knowing how to best use the powers and assets you have is stronger than having any power in particular.

    Why Serpentis is good? Because the FoS are used to leverage its cool factor in rituals and on negotiations. Lateral thinking with any Discipline will help you a lot, while trying to brute force your way literally and directly will just get you killed.

    The ultimate balancing factor of Vampire is that no one is really immune to a bulldozer demolishing your haven by midday, not even the few who can withstand the sun to some degree.

    Leave a comment:


  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Yes, yes, the best disciplines are thus the ones that let you accumulate backgrounds and not get caught out. IE Dominate, Obfuscate, Auspex... looks like a certain clan. Presence and Animalism are helpful too. The best thing physicals can do is impress people enough that they want to follow you (or make them afraid of you).
    The best dots are resources, followed by influence. Generation is for suckers. Unique disciplines are for suckers. Vicissitude's best use isn't in turning into an unstakable, unstoppable pool of blood, but in giving your retainers the sexual capital they need to best acquire resources and influence. Thaumaturgy's best use isn't to fly, curse or incinerate your enemies, but in that you can sell rituals and leverage a high price from customers and thus obtain backgrounds...

    Counterargument:
    Obtenebration's really strong though. You don't need friends or money if you're an amorphous mass of blood sucking tentacles.

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  • Thoth
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Conjuration isn't broke if you read into some of the supplements that talk about alchemy, but it's pretty out there if you take it at face value.

    Thaumaturgy is a massive XP sink with some very serious social concerns (while you're studying rituals, you're not making friends or maintaining your herd, and your rival is after your stuff you're sure.) It also attracts powergamers who like to get creative, but that's not really indicative of it's power. You tend to notice when someone says "I cast XXXX" but when someone goes "I grab him" (with my 15 dice) it's not so noticeable.
    This more or less illustrates my point, a smart player doesn't allow things to degenerate to the point where they are ever in arms reach in the first place. Hence why a character gen assamite/banu haqim can hunt werewolves with little issue, or a Path of Technomancy specialist can break countries or nations from the other side of the world.

    As an interesting experiment, imagine trying to run a game where the players have to use backgrounds to fight their battles rather than the bog standard combat build disciplines. Very quickly it becomes evident that the best way to fight is to never be on location. Another benefit is that this approach makes Generation more or less useless for most conflicts.

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  • Vilenecromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by Hello View Post

    Isn't that under Mortis?
    V20 got rid of mortis and lumped it into necromancy.

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  • Hello
    replied
    Originally posted by Vilenecromancer View Post
    What about Grave's Decay? Players can paralyze mortals and vampires alike with but a glance at level 2.
    Isn't that under Mortis?

    Leave a comment:


  • Vilenecromancer
    replied
    As stated by Thoth, all abilities can be terrifying with the right group. Most powers are really good in the right circumstances. That said, the most overrated path is Thaumaturgy's very own Lure of Flames. Now people have a very good reason to think this is a very powerful path, because it is! It creates fire after all, vampire fear fire. However, the fire is obviously not normal when it appears out of thin air. At least Path of Bones can make cameras think the people you just killed are totally fine, how do you mask a fire without wiping the camaras? You're going to bust a lot of pipes just to cover your tracks. Lure of Flames is very powerful, but in a game where the goal is to not get caught, it is very likely to have your head rolling.

    Now for the opposite, the Corpse in the Monster for necromancy. Just the fact at level 3 I can make a vampire need to piss themselves while itching all over is hilarious to me. Also, if you manage to slog through the EXP investment all the way to level 5, you can walk in the sun again!

    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Necromancy is the same but not as good. (though it's stronger at lower levels than Thaumaturgy so it's pretty alright) Sephulcre and ash are the only paths worth investment in, as much as I am intrigued about eating ghosts, the others aren't.
    What about Grave's Decay? Players can paralyze mortals and vampires alike with but a glance at level 2.

    Leave a comment:


  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Conjuration isn't broke if you read into some of the supplements that talk about alchemy, but it's pretty out there if you take it at face value.

    Thaumaturgy is a massive XP sink with some very serious social concerns (while you're studying rituals, you're not making friends or maintaining your herd, and your rival is after your stuff you're sure.) It also attracts powergamers who like to get creative, but that's not really indicative of it's power. You tend to notice when someone says "I cast XXXX" but when someone goes "I grab him" (with my 15 dice) it's not so noticeable.
    Necromancy is the same but not as good. (though it's stronger at lower levels than Thaumaturgy so it's pretty alright) Sephulcre and ash are the only paths worth investment in, as much as I am intrigued about eating ghosts, the others aren't.

    Serpentis is bunk if you use OG soak rules (which you should)
    Vicissitude is magic surgery, not some gamebreaking god's gift. Sure, it leaves nasty scars, but if you can scar someone with Vis you probably could've killed them without.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thoth
    replied
    Originally posted by Hello View Post
    Someone once said that conjuring could be used to conjure blood, don't know if that's true or not.
    Using the V20 rules for it, you would need to use the second level of the power to make blood for consumption, so most STs would simply say that you can create one blood point worth of blood at the cost of three blood points worth of vitae. Except that the restriction on conjuring is it can be no larger than the thaumaturge in size. So one adult body worth of blood is closer to 10+ blood points depending on the size of the caster.

    Assuming the ST allows you to pull this off, they would probably handwave the issue by saying that while the blood is perfectly viable for transfusions, it doesn't carry the spark of life that vampires actually feed on, there for it has no nutritional value to them.

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  • Hello
    replied
    Someone once said that conjuring could be used to conjure blood, don't know if that's true or not.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thoth
    replied
    The interesting thing about many WoD abilities (regardless of splat) is that the level of "broken-ness" is dependent on how and when they are used as much as by the mechanics.

    For instance, in your example of raising zombies is a masquerade breach, on the surface level that is correct. But it is only a breach if people clearly understand that they are zombies. In games I have had necromancers raise zombies to essentially have the bodies of people they killed in combat clean up after themselves. Likewise you can have a group of zombies attack, but if they are in biker leathers with visored helmets on, no one will know the difference.

    Truely broken levels are achieved when the ST & Players have IRL specialty knowledge and experience which they bring to the table. The Tremere thaumaturgy Path of Conjuring seems fine on its own, but if you have gamers with chemistry, engineering, or even historical backgrounds, then you go from overpowered to game breaking. By the same token the Path of Technomancy takes on whole new levels of broken if your group as practical computer security or hacking experience.

    Basically as long as neither the ST or Players aren't particularly creative and lack IRL experience, most rules and mechanics are "balanced". But if that knowledge baseline changes... balance becomes a myth.

    Leave a comment:

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