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Doesn't Lore of the Flesh seem like a better alternative to Vicissitude?

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  • Doesn't Lore of the Flesh seem like a better alternative to Vicissitude?

    I mainly ask this because Lore of the flesh from DTF seems to take a lot more parts of the body into account than vicissitude. It includes not just flesh and bone but, nerves and hormones as well, both are crucial to the human body.

    Now some powers of lore of the flesh from DTF are not going to be suitable for a vampire, I can admit that. But those powers could be reworded to make them more applicable for vampires. Manipulate metabolism for example could be used to produce or store extra vitae temporarily. And sure some powers may come under ST fiat but from what I have read from a lot of the posts, vicissitude tends to come under ST fiat a lot of times as well. Horrid form and blood form could be made potentially possible with level 5 Lore of the Flesh.


    It just seems to be more practical for the Tzimisce than vicissitude since most posts have described them mostly operating on living things.
    Last edited by Hello; 03-10-2022, 06:57 PM.



  • #2
    Shall we philosophize on this?

    I think people just don't know the biology to understand Vicissitude's potential. Therefore, when hormones and nerves are mentioned, you immediately think that this Lore can do this, but Vicissitude cannot (it was not directly written that way, so someone couldnt try to think). Although in fact you can do it (by rule & logic), if you want to tie your nerves - do it; if you want to play with the organs and constantly inject adrenaline into the ghoul's blood - go ahead. Body modifications are quite popular among the Tzimisce.

    Actually, each "power" has a description of its influence. Vicissitude works with (un)living flesh and organics; It's just a mastery of flesh control. Vampires (as well as revenants and ghouls) at the first level affect their body and internal processes on a minimal scale. Next comes the sculpting of flesh and bone, and then there are radical changes in the structure of the body. Elders can turn blood into napalm and acid, turn into a virus / plague or dissolve into the ground, etc.

    Lore of Flesh is not the equivalent of Vicissitude. This body of demonic/angelic knowledge about the flesh works on other concepts and ideas. I mean, you start sculpting flesh at level 5. Before that, you remove poisons, control the processes in the body and restore the flesh or stimulate the body. Most of the transformations and work with the flesh at the early levels are the result of rituals.
    • But those powers could be reworded to make them more applicable for vampires.
    No need. Some of the effects can be repeated, others are done in combo disciplines, and some are not so easy to repeat. Let's say you can grow a leg with one combo discipline or vitae (and luck). Mutate the victim into a monster (causing tissue degeneration and massive inflammation along the way) - Unchain the Wrathful Beast. On the other hand, some Vicissitude effects (mostly some combo disciplines and high level effects) can no longer be replicated by Flesh Lore alone.
    • It just seems to be more practical for the Tzimisce than vicissitude
    I disagree, they are much more practical and closer in spirit to Vicissitude, direct manipulation of the flesh; not miracles with drawing out poisons or stimulating nervous activity.
    In any case, if you want to play demon-themed Tzimisce - the rules allow you to get the support of the Fallen or get their powers, you need a contract (just like the Inconnu did). Or the classic Devil's Due - where pacts with Cainites are possible in the Dark Ages.
    Last edited by Alphari; 03-11-2022, 10:14 AM.

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    • #3
      Lore of the Flesh is ridiculously good, and I think it shows what a rough first draft the D:tF core rulebook was. While Devourers have Lore of the Flesh to tweak their combat forms and the forms of their allies and summoned animals, the Scourges have a Lore that's just five dots of looking and speaking through your human servants' eyes. The Defilers, the succubus themed splat, have Lore of Longing, which does nothing that Lore of Humanity or Lore of Radiance couldn't do better.

      As a game system it's all over the place, and it kind of saddens me that there will likely never be an official attempt to overhaul it for balance just because the larger World of Darkness metaplot moved on from being strictly about Y2k panic.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Reasor View Post
        Lore of the Flesh is ridiculously good, and I think it shows what a rough first draft the D:tF core rulebook was. While Devourers have Lore of the Flesh to tweak their combat forms and the forms of their allies and summoned animals, the Scourges have a Lore that's just five dots of looking and speaking through your human servants' eyes. The Defilers, the succubus themed splat, have Lore of Longing, which does nothing that Lore of Humanity or Lore of Radiance couldn't do better.

        As a game system it's all over the place, and it kind of saddens me that there will likely never be an official attempt to overhaul it for balance just because the larger World of Darkness metaplot moved on from being strictly about Y2k panic.

        Yeah, although I have never got the chance to play it, reading through all the lores makes me wonder how exactly the fallen are supposed to be fallen angels. Honestly a lot of the lores from DTF seem quite similar to vampiric blood sorcery, more specifically koldunic sorcery. With some others being discount vampire diciplines.

        The Halaku lores are pretty cool though.


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