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  • #31
    Originally posted by Manfr View Post
    I mostly agree with you: when they went out with V5, it seems to me they thought it would be "the Vampire 5th edition", whereas Requiem was the divisive "4th edition" thing, full of good ideas but misunderstood by fans, that was going to be reconciled into the "One World of Darkness".
    Which is a bit silly with over a decade of doing their best to make VtM and VtR separate brands.

    The unexpected reaction of V20 core players has basically made V20 into a Pathfinder of sorts (but with less market traction, as it's not a competing company, and it's available mosty as prestige edition or POD, and supported through the STV), and V5 into a 4th edition of sorts (as a supporter, of course I hope with better fortunes than the D&D equivalent).
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    FYI - arguably Fifth Edition Vampire: The Masquerade is the most popular and widespread version of the game made due to the fact it has reached all across the world rather than just in the United States.
    I think we can all agree this line of thought is highly misleading.

    V20's sales and V5's sales simply can't be compared because V20 didn't have Paradox throwing huge amounts of resources into marketing it globally. Paradox makes Onyx Path hustle to get non-English translations of the 20th books, while funding such efforts directly for the WoD5 stuff. Paradox is funding international distribution through more traditional channels for WoD5, and not giving the 20th books access to those, so Onyx Path continues to have to rely on Kickstarter, OBS, IPR, and Studio2.

    It's not a comment on either edition's quality. It's a comment on Paradox's choice of which to financially back.

    I don't necessarily fault Paradox's thinking here. Where V20 and V5 compete.. V5 doesn't do nearly as well. So having V5 be the only thing on the market for as many customers as possible when you're putting your money behind V5 makes sense. But it means there's a thumb on the scale here.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
      I think we can all agree this line of thought is highly misleading.

      V20's sales and V5's sales simply can't be compared because V20 didn't have Paradox throwing huge amounts of resources into marketing it globally. Paradox makes Onyx Path hustle to get non-English translations of the 20th books, while funding such efforts directly for the WoD5 stuff. Paradox is funding international distribution through more traditional channels for WoD5, and not giving the 20th books access to those, so Onyx Path continues to have to rely on Kickstarter, OBS, IPR, and Studio2.

      It's not a comment on either edition's quality. It's a comment on Paradox's choice of which to financially back.

      I don't necessarily fault Paradox's thinking here. Where V20 and V5 compete.. V5 doesn't do nearly as well. So having V5 be the only thing on the market for as many customers as possible when you're putting your money behind V5 makes sense. But it means there's a thumb on the scale here.
      *mod hat on* This is not the thread to discuss this. No more edition warning.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #33
        Sell me on 5th Edition

        I love fifth edition.

        It is my second favorite of all V:TM lines.

        However, it comes with a caveat that I do not love ALL of 5th Edition. 5th Edition is a very uneven game and is some of the absolute best in the franchise with some books that are just not worth buying.

        Generally, I think I'm going to speak for most of us when I say that the 5th Edition books worth buying are the Onyx Path supplements.

        * Chicago by Night
        * Cults of the Blood Gods
        * The Chicago Folios
        * Let the Streets Run Red
        * Children of the Blood
        * Trails of Ash and Bone
        * Forbidden Religions

        I am probably not being controversial by saying that if you purchase the main book and these that you're not really missing anything. A lot of the appeal of 5th Edition is from its third party supplementation like LA BY NIGHT and WINTER'S TEETH or the visual novels COTERIES OF NEW YORK and its sequel.

        Edit:

        And to clarify, yes, feel free to say what books have been done better than others.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #34
          Sorry @HeavyArms but I do not agree with your line of reasoning. It's not like Paradox has stifled the growth of 20th Anniversary Edition by forcing OPP to do a Kickstarter distribution.

          Paradox bought White Wolf from CCP at the end of October 2015, right after the launch of M20: we already had 4 years of V20 and 2 years of W20 around, with a non-traditional distribution model.

          There were already lots of 20th Anniversary Edition supplements around, when Paradox took in, and their dominant distribution model was consistently Kickstarter. They didn't change any OPP policy, as far as we know.

          The "4th edition" of Vampire the Masquerade was announced by OPP in 2016, and the Paradox-led V5 came out in 2017.

          So, it's not like Paradox was actively trying keep the OPP "superior V20" out of the market: OPP itself didn't think of V20 as the edition that would re-launch the brand, and that would be sold massively through traditional channels.

          Besides, it's not strange that V20 books are not printed alongside V5 ones: when we got D&D 3rd, Wizards didn't go on printing new copies of Ad&D modules.

          EDIT: sorry for going forward with this topic, CTPhipps, but I was writing along when you replied.
          Last edited by Manfr; 03-15-2022, 05:27 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Manfr View Post
            Nightmarish visions call the Elders to reach faraway places, from the Middle East to the jungles of Africa and South America, to lakes and icy mountains in North America, spreading apocalyptic terror and leading the Sabbat into a destructive Gehenna Crusade.
            I know it's not the point of this thread, so apologies for the tangent. This bit just intrigued me greatly. I thought the Gehenna Crusade was entirely focused on the Middle East, with Kindred elsewhere having no idea what was happening with Elders going off there. Has that been retconned then? Who are the Sabbat fighting in all these places?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
              As a requiem player whose first experience with D&D was with the 4th edition I must object, requiem was nowhere near the mess that 4th was and is still a mechanically better system than both V20 and V5, the thing with V5 is that they tried to make it mainstream which means cutting a lot of stuff that would be considered problematic, not just lorewise but mechanically too, this attempt to modernize the game wasn't a success but wasn't a failure either, V5 is most likely the foundation upon Paradox will build their vision of WoD, I'm sure the mechanics will get better while I have my doubts on the lore...
              My example from d&d 3.5, D&D 5 vs v5/v20 was sarcasm. It is an absurd/bad example.
              With my example I was referring to your example of terminator and matrix.

              Originally posted by Slasher View Post
              It is a bad example.
              I can say that D&D 3.5 is vampire 20th and vampire V5 is D&D 5.
              I think those comparisons are absurd.

              I think you should read the V5 core and draw your own conclusion.
              If you don't like V5, you have a lot of material in V20.


              *(Sorry. My English is very bad.)

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Blind Dragon View Post
                I know it's not the point of this thread, so apologies for the tangent. This bit just intrigued me greatly. I thought the Gehenna Crusade was entirely focused on the Middle East, with Kindred elsewhere having no idea what was happening with Elders going off there. Has that been retconned then? Who are the Sabbat fighting in all these places?
                It was kind of "retconned", yes. The changes to the Camarilla book had already expanded it to a larger region surrounding the Middle East. And the Sabbat really confirmed it:

                "And the Sabbat knows an additional secret that has so far eluded the other sects: The Gehenna War affects much more territory than what the Camarilla and Anarchs suspect. It isn’t confined to the cradle of civilization, where the original and most ancient vampires held sway. The intervening millennia have caused a great diaspora of peoples and the vampires who hide among them. Therefore, the Antediluvians have likewise traveled enormous distances, making the Gehenna War a worldwide theatre." Sabbat, page 13.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Blind Dragon View Post

                  I know it's not the point of this thread, so apologies for the tangent. This bit just intrigued me greatly. I thought the Gehenna Crusade was entirely focused on the Middle East, with Kindred elsewhere having no idea what was happening with Elders going off there. Has that been retconned then? Who are the Sabbat fighting in all these places?
                  The Camarilla book posited a larger frame to the Gehenna Crusade/War. It's not even a retcon, all of that stuff came out at the same time at the start, presenting expanded worldview.

                  The problem comes from a lot of people reading the core book and nothing else, then touting that as Hard Facts, which is mainly 'here's what basic knowledge for most kindred is'. So they miss out, or purposely ignore, and often purposely misconstrue, the material.
                  Last edited by elmerg; 03-15-2022, 09:38 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by elmerg View Post

                    The Camarilla book posited a larger frame to the Gehenna Crusade/War. It's not even a retcon, all of that stuff came out at the same time at the start, presenting expanded worldview.

                    The problem comes from a lot of people reading the core book and nothing else, then touting that as Hard Facts, which is mainly 'here's what basic knowledge for most kindred is'. So they miss out, or purposely ignore, and often purposely misconstrue, the material.
                    Let's not complain about fellow fans either. This thread should be about talking about what people like and recommend about 5th Edition. It's in the title.

                    Last post on this.



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                    • #40
                      Loresheets are very good. I love them.

                      Allowing Background points to be spent on Merits, too, is good.

                      Hunger Dice are a good idea, though I think they need tweaking. Maybe something like WTO's Shadow Dice would work better.

                      The Hecata are sort of cool, but maybe more as a sect than a clan.

                      I like Compulsions, Messy Criticals and Bestial Failures. But I think there could be more finesse in making them work. I also miss botches, generally.

                      Flexible Disciplines are a good idea, but the Amalgams get a bit messy (there are hidden traps) and the 'one power per dot rule' should just be ignored.

                      I think that's everything.


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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
                        Loresheets are very good. I love them.

                        Allowing Background points to be spent on Merits, too, is good.

                        Hunger Dice are a good idea, though I think they need tweaking. Maybe something like WTO's Shadow Dice would work better.

                        The Hecata are sort of cool, but maybe more as a sect than a clan.

                        I like Compulsions, Messy Criticals and Bestial Failures. But I think there could be more finesse in making them work. I also miss botches, generally.

                        Flexible Disciplines are a good idea, but the Amalgams get a bit messy (there are hidden traps) and the 'one power per dot rule' should just be ignored.

                        I think that's everything.

                        This might seem petty compared to all the other issues of the game but I can't put into words how much the power limit vexes me, it needlessly limits character development options, if you have the xp then you should be able to buy all the powers that you want and most tables I played at ignored the rule, also it would have been nice if they took a clue from requiem and allowed the physical disciplines like potency, resistance and celerity to be developed independently, without needing to taste another vamp blood (while keeping the out of clan costs of course), lastly, am I the only one that thinks that vampires who can't naturally see in the dark are ridiculous?

                        The hunger dice is interesting but I think it should use more work, particularly regarding options to limit or nullify its effects, vampires with high composure and resolve should definitely be able to control themselves better, ditto for Compulsions Messy Criticals and Bestial Failures, I don't think it would go against the established lore to have vampire able to control themselves.

                        Regarding loresheets, I enjoy the descriptions and all but I frankly couldn't justify most of them for any character I could make, they are too attached to particular cities and sects.

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                        • #42
                          As someone who isn't a fan of V5 either, I can confirm the rules are a huge positive with the needed caveats.

                          But I would like to elaborate on this that it means I do have a lot of good expectations about the rules in the future. V20 is the culmination of 20 years then more of expertise on making that system, yet it has a lot of flaws because the foundations of the system are deeply flawed.

                          V5 still needs a lot of polishing, but it is a far better foundation as far as rules go, it just doesn't have decades of polishing. On this regard, I'm far more displeased with Revised. And it isn't trying to just be Requiem despite borrowing some ideas from there, so while I do think Requiem is a superior system (especially now on 2nd ed), V5 is its own thing and very promising on this regard.

                          On the matter of books, it is really important to point out the difference between the core and everything else, and the mixed bag of quality they have.

                          Core V5 isn't the best RPG book around by far. Good rules, the art is mostly bad, really bad, and being photos isn't the problem, the problem is how much it looks like a fashion magazine, it just doesn't convey the mood for the game. It has all the bones of the lore, that is the most divisive part, but even for the ones that like the lore it doesn't have a great presentation of it.

                          In short, the core isn't a bad purchase, but it lets too much work yet to be done to go from an ok game to a game you can really like.

                          Fortunately this work is being done by the supplements, especially the ones CTPhipps pointed out. It won't be enough if you can't stand the bones of the new metaplot (which I can't), but it does improve things so that if you like those bones, they're being better fleshed out now. Far better. And the art is overall improving, and while the good writing is mostly OPP, the art improvement is far more consistent.

                          You mostly have to be wary of some last minefields here. While not cited by Phipps, the three Sect books are important to understand the setting as it is now, although later material also help a lot. But the reason Phipps didn't cited them is because they're really bad, and another source of endless contention. The three sects got very cartoonish descriptions and narrower roles in the setting. You may come to like them that way, and later material does a good job at re-adding nuance to them, but it is still there.

                          How much it is worth your investment in the end, it depends. I pretty much think it is worth at least reading it to take your own conclusions. No one here can say for sure if the changes will please you or not, it is divisive. How much money you have to expend on it matters, because it isn't the cheapest RPG around and buying the right (or wrong) books makes a big difference due to the relative low quality of the core, but at the same time it is very complete system-wise.

                          Do not buy the Sabbat book in particular if you're on a tight budget, while it is the best sect book it is still bad and, worse, overpriced.


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                          • #43
                            One thing I feel should be said about the core is the absolutely atrocious layout, seriously even with the pdf it takes ages to find info, the art might be justified as a (very bad) stylistic choice but not the layout, regarding the clan books, I have the slip case with all the 3 main books (core, camarilla and anarchs) and yes they are bad but like monteparnas pointed out, they are necessary to get the full picture of what is happening with V5 metaplot.

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                            • #44
                              I'm not a fan of anything V5, and don't care for literally any of what has been done with the line--however, it's the official present edition of the game, and therefore contains the official metaplot and setting. If those are things that matter to you, then V5 is probably what you need to be playing.


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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
                                ...seriously even with the pdf it takes ages to find info....
                                I'll disagree on this. IME the pdf's bookmarking is actually above par (not largely so) for gaming pdfs of this size and system complexity. As someone that's debated V5 core bits via asking a friend to search the pdf for quotes, that's a pretty good testament to the pdf bookmarking work.

                                That's because it isn't really a matter of how the text itself is laid out; if the pdf bookmarks do a good job of pointing you to the right page(s) you can find the information you want.

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