Sell me on 5th edition

[monteparnas]

Yeah, the bookmarks aren't something I can complain, which is a positive overall, especially in the book you'll reference the most. And while the layout is atrocious, for the matter of finding information it is actually far better than 1st and 2nd editions, mostly on par with Revised and a little worse than V20.

V:tM does not have a stellar history with book organization, overall. We got used to it, which is a whole different thing.

[SetiteFriend]

I do agree that the layout isn't good, but just to play devil's advocate for a minute, it is good (theoretically anyway) for character creation.

You have the lore, introduction to clans and basic rules first. Then the walkthrough of character creation, with the list of almost everything you picked (Attributes, Skills, Predator Types) right after, as well as integral beliefs of the character, like convictions, touchstones and desires. These last things might seem weird being separate to Humanity section, but that is because it something you should pick for the character, not just to soak up stains.

After that you get the whole ins and outs of Vampirism, from the mechanics to disciplines, and at this point you would have a complete character. After that you have a lot of, mostly ST, stuff.

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This design goal means it is bad for looking up stuff however, especially when rules are in two separate sections, like Humanity, despite its close association with Tenets and Convictions, is separate from them. But it is something you get used to, I have a general idea of where everything is by now, searching keywords with ctrl-F helps immensely.

[Newb95]

I'll disagree on this. IME the pdf's bookmarking is actually above par (not largely so) for gaming pdfs of this size and system complexity. As someone that's debated V5 core bits via asking a friend to search the pdf for quotes, that's a pretty good testament to the pdf bookmarking work.

That's because it isn't really a matter of how the text itself is laid out; if the pdf bookmarks do a good job of pointing you to the right page(s) you can find the information you want.

I always have trouble finding the quick character creation chart and the various merits and flaws, the weapon values in particular are a pain because they are just a small box, this happened frequently in every table I was in, the info spread and the indexing is just bad in my opinion.

[Newb95]

Yeah, the bookmarks aren't something I can complain, which is a positive overall, especially in the book you'll reference the most. And while the layout is atrocious, for the matter of finding information it is actually far better than 1st and 2nd editions, mostly on par with Revised and a little worse than V20.

V:tM does not have a stellar history with book organization, overall. We got used to it, which is a whole different thing.

Guess I've been spoiled with requiem, every time I play masquerade its always a pain to find info and now that you mention it, V5 is definitely not worse than the older versions but its still bad with this.

[Heavy Arms]

Onyx Path tends to do better about taking full advantages of pdf book marks for things like important sidebars/charts, but as someone that's consumed a lot of RPG pdfs, there are so much worse out there. Sure, that's not the most glowing recommendation, but there's a difference between "could have used a few more bookmarks for commonly referenced charts" and actively bad pdfs where the bookmarks are just a glorified table of contents.

[monteparnas]

Definitely. OPP did a far better job than WW with content organization and indexation, but it really shines when it comes to PDF bookmarks. If you're used to physical books, then really OPP is just ok, while WW went through the years from terrible to just plain bad. V20 core was WW, it is better than everything they did before, but still bad. If your only experience is with WoD, then OPP seems awesome, but there're actually plenty of better books in the market.

Not so much with PDFs. Most traditional publishers only recently started to fiddle around with electronic bookmarks, and it is really bad. Heck, most of the best bookmarked PDFs out there are just ok and are pirate stuff, not official. WotC only started to take it seriously with 5e, and they're learning the ropes. In that sea of shit, Paradox did an ok job, which is really good in comparison. But again, if your only reference is OPP, then they can't easily compete.

Overall V5 doesn't bother me, and the bookmarks do a fine job indeed, but it surely isn't like anything OPP did.

[Heavy Arms]

While getting tangential, it's completely legal to create a PDF bookmark export file for a given gaming book, and then put it up on the Internet for people to import to their own pdfs (obviously you can't control how they got their pdfs, but that's not on you). Almost every pdf reader has a custom bookmark function and importing a bookmark file just having someone else do it for you. The only problem is you'll have to redo it any time the pdf is updated (though most gaming pdfs are rarely updated after the first 6 months).

[adambeyoncelowe]

This might seem petty compared to all the other issues of the game but I can't put into words how much the power limit vexes me, it needlessly limits character development options, if you have the xp then you should be able to buy all the powers that you want and most tables I played at ignored the rule, also it would have been nice if they took a clue from requiem and allowed the physical disciplines like potency, resistance and celerity to be developed independently, without needing to taste another vamp blood (while keeping the out of clan costs of course), lastly, am I the only one that thinks that vampires who can't naturally see in the dark are ridiculous?

The hunger dice is interesting but I think it should use more work, particularly regarding options to limit or nullify its effects, vampires with high composure and resolve should definitely be able to control themselves better, ditto for Compulsions Messy Criticals and Bestial Failures, I don't think it would go against the established lore to have vampire able to control themselves.

Regarding loresheets, I enjoy the descriptions and all but I frankly couldn't justify most of them for any character I could make, they are too attached to particular cities and sects.

I have a new thread for reworking Messy Crits. Let me know your thoughts? Essentially, the behaviour element (baring your fangs, breaking things) becomes a choice you make to gain an extra bonus during Blood Surge, with the risk that if you roll more successes than your Composure, you will gain a Compulsion. That way, Composure is useful for retaining control, and the choice to take a risk (with potentially devastating consequences) is at that sweet point where it's worth it.

As for Loresheets, I have just become aware. Via Ian Watson over on RPG.net, that Storypath's Paths system is their version of Loresheets for the Trinity Continuum. I actually really dig that model and have begun wondering if they can replace the VTM method of buying Backgrounds altogether (so you get packages of things like Allies, Contacts, Resources, etc, tied to a particular niche or life path, which makes it much faster to pull together your history without having to juggle Advantage/Background/Freebie points, depending on edition).

I am a constant tinkerer, though. At this point, I have at least three sets of house rules I can choose from for every game I play. 🤣