Clan tzimisce is the least interesting clan

[Hello]

In my opinion the least interesting clan has to be clan tzimisce, other than vicissitude there's not much going for them. Without vicissitude they're a discount, venture. Sure they have koldunic sorcery, but at this point everyone and their mother knows blood sorcery. And honestly vicissitude in itself isn't that interesting either, sure you can manipulate flesh and bone, but that's it. First dot is insanely useful though.

I will admit that Kupala is pretty interesting, but that's about it.

[Thoth]

Tzimisce are a clan of largely unrealized potential. Sadly, this is due to both a lack of vision on the part of the writers and many gamers.

Their clan weakness anchors them to an area mechanically rather than just having fluff state that vampires dwell in cities or near civilization. There seems to be very little fluff focus on managing societies of mortals.

Their ability to craft flesh by discipline or kuldonic sorcery means they can be played as horde faction, but that isn't allowed post Masquerade era. I bet very few STs have run games where Tzimisce and Nosferatu go full out minion army warfare, an army of vozhd verses limitless masses of mutant vermin wiping out whole cities as collateral damage. If vampiric kaiju battles are uninteresting.... I don't know what to suggest.

Kuldonic sorcery is better magic than several Thaumaturgy paths and allow for the whole Element Bender flavor, but the fluff says only the rarest elders of the clan are well versed in such things.

I find that when a clan/bloodline is uninteresting, it usually means it lends itself to a game style or play style the person doesn't favor or perhaps doesn't even think of.

Don't get me wrong though, I have had my fill of players who make a Tzimisce character just to recreate a hentai body horror scene because they are trying to be edgy or are just trying to see what shade of green they can make the other players turn.

[CajunKhan]

I like the Tzims. They are fun to play when you want to be either a classic old school vampire, or Necroscope wamphyri.

[Garygeneric]

I find Tzimisce to be one of the more multi-faceted and versatile clans. Almost every other clan stereotype fits nicely as a Tzimisce concept: bestial, monstrous, mystic, aristocratic, madman, scientist, soldier, artist, freak show, silent killer, flamboyant performer, etc, etc.

Most complaints I hear are when players focus on Vicissitude stuff. I feel this has been made even worse with their recent loss of Auspex. Without the possible pursuit of transcendence, and higher understanding and insight, Vicissitude just becomes a low-brow gross out contest; the Tzimisce equivalent of “fishmalk.”

[Vilenecromancer]

So, you have chosen death? Interesting. I'll make note of that.

[Sergeant Brother]

I find the Tzimisce to be really interesting. In many ways more interesting than the Ventrue as they can encompass the concepts of the Ventrue but with greater flavor in addition to numerous other concepts.

Below are some things that I find interesting about the Tzimisce. There are less interesting interpretations and aspects of the Tzimisce which I won’t bother touching on.

They are aristocrats who are at once evil but also honorable. They hold to their traditions and how hospitality to welcomed visitors and respect to the lord of the land. They are a more traditional and even rural sort of nobility than the Ventrue or Lasombra, having a connection to the land as well as dominance over animals and perhaps the land itself. In some ways, this aspect of them gives the Tzimisce the most vampiric flavor of any Clan.

They are the most ghoul focused Clan, befitting their flavor of tradition bound medieval lords, they have special servants including the Revenants who have served them over the generations. There are the Revenant families which are particularly unique and interesting within the setting, aristocrats in their own rights, but also twisted and dark like their masters, human and yet something else. There are standard ghouls and well as animal ghouls who they can control with greater effect because of animalistic. Then there are those monstrous ghouls altered by Vicissitude. The Tzimisce Clan aren’t just the vampires, but a diverse assortment of their servants that form a part of the Tzimisce culture.

The Tzimisce are spiritual. They have this connection to their ancestral lands, sometimes that they can draw upon with Koldunic Sorcery. They sometimes aspire to rise above their vampiric state, altering themselves or learning about the vampiric form. This can be interpreted in a mystical way, a religious one, or even as a science.

A Tzimisce character can be a noble lord, an inquisitive scientist, a spiritual mystic, or a sadistic villain. A Tzimisce can take on the place of several other Clans and yet still have their own unique flavor. Then you can add in the Revenant families, and your Tzimisce character could be a former Revenant and then you have that flavor in addition. Vicissitude can be cool, but I really don’t even think that you need it for the Tzimisce Clan to be awesome.

[CTPhipps]

The Tzimisce are fascinating and one of my all time favorite clans. However, Vicissitude is the least interesting thing about them. There's a reason the Old Clan Tzimisce and Dark Ages Tzimisce are the best Tzimisce.

[Heavy Arms]

Vampire: the Dark Ages was my first WoD game. From the perspective the idea of the Tzim being the least interesting is baffling. The modern nights Tzim are a different matter though, because the Tzim's creative origins and being part of the Sabbat made it very hard to bring up their cooler aspects without going back in time.

[Hello]

So, you have chosen death? Interesting. I'll make note of that.

I didn't choose death, death chose me. #Giovanni #Cappodocian

[Sergeant Brother]

Vampire: the Dark Ages was my first WoD game. From the perspective the idea of the Tzim being the least interesting is baffling. The modern nights Tzim are a different matter though, because the Tzim's creative origins and being part of the Sabbat made it very hard to bring up their cooler aspects without going back in time.

That is one of my big issues with the Clan. I like the dark lord aspect of the Tzimisce and in the Sabbath, that angle is subverted.

[monteparnas]

I simply love them. I think Vicissitude is really interesting and fun, but the Tzimisce are oh so much beyond just that. It is not about their stats, but about the stories those stats tell, of those old Carpathian lords and their relationship to their land, their lineages, their subjects, their duties and their privileges. And the myriad unique ways a given Tzimisce can relate to this weight of history and tradition.

Also, you simply have no better clan to play old school vampires. Sure, you can get Orlok's look with a Nosferatu, but outside that it is the Tzimisce the clan that deals the most with the themes and inspirations from before Anne Rice.

[Sergeant Brother]

One of the cool things about the Tzimisce is that they are more than just a vampiric archetype. They aren’t just lordly vampires or mystical vampires, they have a complex Clan culture and history that blends those various archetypes in a really interesting way. Drawing inspiration from some of the oldest popular vampire myths while also incorporating original ideas as well. In my opinion, they are one of the more interesting Clans.

I guess my questions for Hello are: what do you think that the Tzimisce need to be interesting? What Clans do you think are the most interesting and why?

[Kharnov]

*aHEM* I'm going to have to +11 the "The Tzimisce are one of the most interesting and flexible out of all the Clans." But I can agree that you have to dip into the Dark Ages depiction to get a lot of that. And that I can't necessarily speak much for what they have become in V5. Definitely among those saddened by the loss of Auspex. But one of the coolest things about the Tzimisce is that they are one of the easiest Clans to just shrug and go "yeah, they made a Bloodline for that." It probably requires more fudging in V5, dunno what kind of alterations and retcons may have been put in place, but they are among the masters of manipulating the Kindred condition, through the manipulation of Revenant bloodlines and then Embracing the results, among other things.

There are too many examples to draw on if you would like mystics or mad scientists.

Want a warrior Tzimisce? Say hello to Vladimir.

What about a socialite Tzimisce, a diplomat? Radu has you covered.

Pretty boy hedonist? Ilias throws a great party.

Drag queen? Meet my friend Zachary. Until he got himself into a little bit of trouble, that is, poor fellow.

To go back to your original comments a bit, Tzimisce are not bargain-bin Ventrue, though I do find the parallels between the two to be interesting, especially when you consider their history as rivals in Central Europe. Even accepting V5's alterations to the Clan, having Animalism and PROTEAN combined with Dominate is a delightfully terrifying combination. If that Discipline spread is not kicking all kinds of ass, I'd suspect that has more to do with the limits the V5 system places on Disciplines than a flaw with the Tzimisce Discipline spread itself. I'm not quite with CTPhipps on the idea that Vicissitude is the least-interesting thing about the Tzimisce, but saying they can't be interesting *without* it is completely insane to me.

I think Sergeant Brother is probably right that we'd need a bit more clarification on what you think makes the Tzimisce uninteresting, or other Clans more interesting, to respond better. But I rarely miss an opportunity to stan for the Tzimisce, thanks for giving me an excuse :P

[Black Fox]

I was originally perplexed by what to do with the Tzimisce. I absolutely hated Vicissitude when it was first introduced (and still do, when I ST I eliminate the Discipline). I had no idea why this abomination of an idea was stinking up Vampire. It was well over a decade before I finally discovered this was based on Necroscope style vampires and finally understood why it was in the game. So while I finally understood it, I still hated it. Necroscope was crap. (Well before V5, I nuked Vicissitude and replaced it with Protean for their in-clan Discipline.)

But at the same time, "Dracula was a Tzimisce" always sounded cool. Dracula, of course, is awesome. But White Wolf's Dracula introduced a lot of odd things that had nothing to do with the book so it wasn't really clear what justified making Dracula a Tzimisce other than the clan weakness of needing to dwell in one's grave soil. That seemed to be it.

So the identity of Tzimisce seemed bound to be a combination of being tied to the soil, and being "fiends" (meaning cruel). I guess that's OK. Being Vlad the Impaler is interesting. But it means that the most interesting thing about the Tzimisce isn't the stuff created by VtM, it's about rediscovering the things you like about Dracula - his ancient lineage, his ties to the Scholomance, his brides, his callous nature, and so on. You need to abandon the unique stuff VtM did with it.

I know lots of people now love these faux-Necroscope vampires so I'm not here to convert anyone. I just never liked them.

[monteparnas]

But it means that the most interesting thing about the Tzimisce isn't the stuff created by VtM, it's about rediscovering the things you like about Dracula - his ancient lineage, his ties to the Scholomance, his brides, his callous nature, and so on. You need to abandon the unique stuff VtM did with it.

It is mostly this. The thing is that the authors decided to embrace it instead of avoiding it, so here and there they confirmed all those things about the Tzimisce that are originally from outside the game.

The end result, though, was reasonably well put together and we got a clan that is complex and nuanced as all clans should be, but outside it most of their descriptions are very Planet of Hats style. Not that the Tzimisce always avoid this, but they do so more consistently and frequently.