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Clan tzimisce is the least interesting clan

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  • #16
    I have had a House Rule version of the Tzimsice that have Animalism, Blood Sorcery, and Protean.

    This version of the Tzimisce has most of the STORY elements of Vicissitude but very little of the game mechanics. In this version of the Tzimsice, they can shapeshift into bats and wolves as well as control them like the Gangrel. However, they have their Koldunic magic as rituals.They can communicate with the spirits of the land (either corrupted or by using magic to bind them) and they swiftly establish domination over their homelands through the use of shamanistic bindings.

    But in addition to this, the Tzimisce are also the people who discovered/possess the rituals for Biothaumaturgical Experimentation which effectively replaces Vicissitude in my games alongside Protean.

    https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Bi...xperimentation

    Basicially, "True Tzimisce" as I call my House Ruled ones are ones that can't manipulate flesh by hand. They have to have a laboratory, dungeon, torture cellar, and workshop to do all their horrifying experiments to ghouls/humans/vampires and whatnot. It's not a fast process but one that takes time as well as money/resources. I think it makes Vicisstiude less OP and more interesting as a result. Combine Animalism, Blood Sorcery, and Protean with a Out of Clan Discipline for Dominate and you can understand why Dracula would be a Tzimisce better than in canon.

    Dracula doesn't much fit as a flesh-crafted monster but as a Sorcerer-Noble with lots of animal powers? Yes.


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    • #17
      Tzmisce without Vicissitude are just lesser Ventrue who build domains on the fringes of society. That's... workable, but it's not any good.

      Vicissitude however is interesting not only from a -what you can do with it- perspective but also from a society/theological point of view; is it right to change your unchanging body granted by the curse of caine? Wouldn't society become unstable if anyone could just change their face permanently after committing a crime? What kind of impact would all of your "practice" have on your humanity? There's some pretty solid reasons to condemn Vicissitude and there's some pretty solid reasons to champion it; it makes for an interesting debate. Thus, I can't agree with any notion that the game would be better off without it. That said, I don't think Tzmisce ever aught to be common.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        Tzmisce without Vicissitude are just lesser Ventrue who build domains on the fringes of society. That's... workable, but it's not any good.
        Well, they're Sorcerer Ventrue who didn't modernize from the Dark Ages. Which is pretty damn cool.

        Vicissitude however is interesting not only from a -what you can do with it- perspective but also from a society/theological point of view; is it right to change your unchanging body granted by the curse of caine? Wouldn't society become unstable if anyone could just change their face permanently after committing a crime? What kind of impact would all of your "practice" have on your humanity? There's some pretty solid reasons to condemn Vicissitude and there's some pretty solid reasons to champion it; it makes for an interesting debate. Thus, I can't agree with any notion that the game would be better off without it. That said, I don't think Tzmisce ever aught to be common.
        Except we have Protean and Blood Sorcery for both.

        Vicissitude is basically a discipline that does way too much and yet not nearly as much different as people think. It's also a discipline that is so out of genre for the majority of the setting.

        Most vampire powers are very similar to what we know from fiction or mythology but it only applies to necroscope, and vampires in Necroscope are ALIENS.


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        • #19
          Not keeping up with the times is pretty damn stupid and very unlikely.

          Protean is temporary. Thaumaturgy can at most give you longer hair or a tattoo. Both are disciplines looking at Bestial or spiritual enlightenment; Viscissitude is simply magic surgery. Who are you to decide what Genre vampire's about? I think Vampire works best as political horror or a tense thriller: Does that mean we should return to high-power differences between neonates and elders and get rid of stupid things like TBA (The answer is yes, yes and yes, but that's because of-fucking-course we should. But I'm not going to get rid of Gangrel just because I like the games confined to cities)

          Most vampire powers are very similar to what we know from fiction or mythology but it only applies to necroscope, and vampires in Necroscope are ALIENS
          Right, Aliens are silly and less believable than "cursed by God".
          Must be nice being so comfortably wrong.


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          • #20
            I think the Old Clan/Vicissitude Clan split is half of the Tzimisce's problem. You can have one-note Slavic overlord sterotypes or you can have a discipline that's eternally doomed to be reduced to "the body horror discipline".

            Anyway. My take on the fiends. Tzimisce are trapped by a part of their identity, yet equipped to prod at the boundaries of the rest of it. They remind me of the Ravnos, in a way.
            You can lean any way you like with them in this dichotomy.

            Chain yourself to the things that you feel connected to, and they to you? Own the land and everything in it to the point of considering/making them extensions of you, from every spirit down to every cell of the physical?

            Change everything and keep looking for new ways to change? Pushing always at the boundaries of what refuses to be changed? Change your face, your name, seek new ways of looking at things while you pursue transcendence? One has changed to overcome the frailties of mortal life, what are the frailties of the undead but more weaknesses to overcome in further metamorphosis?

            What is "I"? What is "you"? "Us"? Is there a difference? Yes? No?

            Or perhaps one lives their unlife somewhere between the two philosophies?

            Or fuck that dracula/philosophy crap altogether and just make a small fortune and a name for yourself being an undead plastic surgeon/tattoo artist, or something. Yay money. That works too. There are so many takes one could have on a Tzimisce.
            Last edited by Rhywbeth; 03-24-2022, 08:24 AM.

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            • #21
              I feel like Vicissitude is a treasure trove of potential and the concept is excellent but a little wasted. Like RAW it's useful for disguises, cosmetics, horrific art objects, and "monsters" only no monster Vicissitude can create is really worth the trouble in a world of semi-automatic firepower. Oh and of course turning yourself into a pool of blood is way cool but it's really not well intigrated with the rest of the powerset. Horrid form would work wonders if you could provide such a boost to other people rather than just yourself.

              IMO, Vicissitude should be a long list of specific operations that can be learned like thaumaturgy "rituals".


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              • #22
                I feel an almost irrational disdain for the old clan.
                The discipline spread is fun, though Dominate doesn't belong to a clan that can't organize itself for shit.

                I just feel "muh dracula" and "Nuh Vicissitude" from it. The "we're the original because we're the OLD clan" is just aggravatingly petty bullshit that I want to throw to the side even moreso than TrBr.
                I like the revenant families. But they're too tied to this BS.


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                • #23
                  They're actually one of the better fleshed (lol) out clans in teems of culture, bloodlines outlook and diversity. I'm unsure where you get this from compared to the more archeotypical ventrue or brujah.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    Most vampire powers are very similar to what we know from fiction or mythology but it only applies to necroscope, and vampires in Necroscope are ALIENS.
                    I don't see half the problems you do with Vicissitude. I used to, not anymore, it isn't particularly OP or anything, and even its versatility isn't all that huge compared to other Disciplines when creatively used. It is just easier to see its creative potential.

                    But that said I agree that it is too much of a reference to Necroscope and this ain't the best thing about it or the Tzimisce. By the way, I like 'em cold and detached, but not to a literal alien degree and not all of them. I pretty much don't like how TBH changed it from "this is a nod to Necroscope" to a full blown "this is fucking Necroscope, enjoy". I think Vicissitude brings some interesting options to the table and that's that. Exchange it for Blood Sorcery if you want, it is just fine for me.

                    My gripes with your house rule is just the lack of Auspex, really. It hurts the clan far more than lack of direct access to Vicissitude. My personal suggestion would be to ditch Blood Sorcery as in-clan and do it as it did before, with they having access to their sorcery tradition, but at out-of-clan cost. That or ditching Protean entirely for Blood Sorcery. Dominate is silly for the Tzimisce, and Auspex really should be there.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                      One of the cool things about the Tzimisce is that they are more than just a vampiric archetype. They aren’t just lordly vampires or mystical vampires, they have a complex Clan culture and history that blends those various archetypes in a really interesting way. Drawing inspiration from some of the oldest popular vampire myths while also incorporating original ideas as well. In my opinion, they are one of the more interesting Clans.

                      I guess my questions for Hello are: what do you think that the Tzimisce need to be interesting? What Clans do you think are the most interesting and why?
                      IMO it would be more interesting if the tzimisce acted more like the progenitors from the technocracy, but without a lot of the morals and restraint. I also feel it would be a great change to have vicissitude act more like Lore of the flesh from DTF. This would make the tzimisce seem like misguided doctors and scientists who want to reveal the secrets of the human body, in the hopes of evolving humanity and even vampires to the next levels.

                      I find the Baali to be the interesting clan, sure some people see them as a bloodline, but I think they work best as a clan. Just reading their clanbook gave me chills, it gives you insight into just how dark the world of darkness really is. They have such an interesting origin and history that it makes you want to read more about them. Somehow they make communing with demons more sinister than it already is. Ironically, for a clan that either worships, or fights demons, they give you the option to become a vampire. Sure the other option is to die, but that's a lot more freedom given to you than many other clans.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                        I have had a House Rule version of the Tzimsice that have Animalism, Blood Sorcery, and Protean.

                        This version of the Tzimisce has most of the STORY elements of Vicissitude but very little of the game mechanics. In this version of the Tzimsice, they can shapeshift into bats and wolves as well as control them like the Gangrel. However, they have their Koldunic magic as rituals.They can communicate with the spirits of the land (either corrupted or by using magic to bind them) and they swiftly establish domination over their homelands through the use of shamanistic bindings.

                        But in addition to this, the Tzimisce are also the people who discovered/possess the rituals for Biothaumaturgical Experimentation which effectively replaces Vicissitude in my games alongside Protean.

                        https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Bi...xperimentation

                        Basicially, "True Tzimisce" as I call my House Ruled ones are ones that can't manipulate flesh by hand. They have to have a laboratory, dungeon, torture cellar, and workshop to do all their horrifying experiments to ghouls/humans/vampires and whatnot. It's not a fast process but one that takes time as well as money/resources. I think it makes Vicisstiude less OP and more interesting as a result. Combine Animalism, Blood Sorcery, and Protean with a Out of Clan Discipline for Dominate and you can understand why Dracula would be a Tzimisce better than in canon.

                        Dracula doesn't much fit as a flesh-crafted monster but as a Sorcerer-Noble with lots of animal powers? Yes.

                        Bio thaumathurgy is perhaps on of the most interesting paths of blood sorcery, that cam out.
                        Last edited by Hello; 03-24-2022, 11:11 AM.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                          My gripes with your house rule is just the lack of Auspex, really. It hurts the clan far more than lack of direct access to Vicissitude. My personal suggestion would be to ditch Blood Sorcery as in-clan and do it as it did before, with they having access to their sorcery tradition, but at out-of-clan cost. That or ditching Protean entirely for Blood Sorcery. Dominate is silly for the Tzimisce, and Auspex really should be there.
                          I vehemently agree with this. Tzimisce need Auspex for all the same reasons Malkavians, Toreador and Tremere have Auspex. Neither Main Clan or Old Clan would psychically blind themselves by replacing Auspex (especially with V5's set up; Main Clan Tzimisce would be as unlikely to replace Auspex with Dominate as Old Clan would be to replace Auspex with Protean).

                          Auspex gives potential and depth to the fiendish-yet-enlightened clan. It reflects not only their long-established penchant for insight, thirst for knowledge and oracular abilities, but also reflects their bent towards paranoia and territorialism, traits common to both mainstream Tzimisce and Old Clan alike.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post

                            Right, Aliens are silly and less believable than "cursed by God".
                            Must be nice being so comfortably wrong.
                            In a Gothic Horror game?

                            Yes, My Wife is Scary

                            Aliens are much sillier and less believable.

                            Originally posted by Garygeneric View Post

                            I vehemently agree with this. Tzimisce need Auspex for all the same reasons Malkavians, Toreador and Tremere have Auspex. Neither Main Clan or Old Clan would psychically blind themselves by replacing Auspex (especially with V5's set up; Main Clan Tzimisce would be as unlikely to replace Auspex with Dominate as Old Clan would be to replace Auspex with Protean).

                            Auspex gives potential and depth to the fiendish-yet-enlightened clan. It reflects not only their long-established penchant for insight, thirst for knowledge and oracular abilities, but also reflects their bent towards paranoia and territorialism, traits common to both mainstream Tzimisce and Old Clan alike.
                            I think you can definitely roleplay them as them but I feel that the scientist-wizard element fits them better and if you had to give up any Discipline that Auspex is the best one to do so.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            I feel an almost irrational disdain for the old clan.
                            The discipline spread is fun, though Dominate doesn't belong to a clan that can't organize itself for shit.

                            I just feel "muh dracula" and "Nuh Vicissitude" from it. The "we're the original because we're the OLD clan" is just aggravatingly petty bullshit that I want to throw to the side even moreso than TrBr.
                            I like the revenant families. But they're too tied to this BS.
                            The Old Clan basically exists as a critique of what a bunch of one-dimensional wannabes some fans think the Modern Tzimisce are.

                            Which is, of course, me.

                            The Old Clan is about saying, "See how awesome they are without Vicisstiude?" Which is, of course, incredibly.
                            Last edited by CTPhipps; 03-24-2022, 12:13 PM.


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                            • #29
                              On having Auspex/Dominate: I feel it really comes down to whether you prefer the focus on the mystic or the rulership aspects, and which do you think is better for the primary focus of the Tzimisce.

                              I find the latter much more interesting, as I feel Tremere, Malkavians and Hecata already fill the former niche well enough. And if they are to be a rulership clan, Dominate fits them much better. I know the whole "The Tzimisce don't need Dominate, they enforce their command through the Blood Bond, torture and body horror!!" thing but honestly, I find it stupid. It's like the Toreador not having Presence because they are so naturally charming, or the Nosferatu not having Obfuscate because they are naturally sneaky. If you have a Clan that enforces absolute control and does what dominate does, give them Dominate.

                              Without Auspex, I find that it also allows Animalism to shine more, as they use the command over beasts to remain informed about their domain.


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                                I think you can definitely roleplay them as them but I feel that the scientist-wizard element fits them better and if you had to give up any Discipline that Auspex is the best one to do so.



                                The Old Clan basically exists as a critique of what a bunch of one-dimensional wannabes some fans think the Modern Tzimisce are.

                                Which is, of course, me.

                                The Old Clan is about saying, "See how awesome they are without Vicisstiude?" Which is, of course, incredibly.
                                You would take a scientist-wizard clan and the one Discipline you’d remove is Auspex? I don’t understand the rationale there.

                                The thing about the Necroscope/The Thinng/The Resurrected body horror angle is that Tzimisce is designed to fill that niche, from a design standpoint. I wouldn’t want to take that away from players completely. It’s cool that people dig Old Clan Tzimisce and have that option, as well, but they have nothing to offer that can’t be matched by several other clans and bloodlines.

                                I also find Dominate too “safe,” too “Camarilla.” It’s a subtle, non-Masquerade-threatening means to control mortals and their institutions, as well as the best method of maintaining the Masquerade. It’s almost EZ Mode for vampires and I think without it, gameplay requires more creativity, and the lore of a Dominateless rulership clan becomes much more flavorful. Just my opinion though.

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