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  • Hello
    started a topic Clan tzimisce is the least interesting clan

    Clan tzimisce is the least interesting clan

    In my opinion the least interesting clan has to be clan tzimisce, other than vicissitude there's not much going for them. Without vicissitude they're a discount, venture. Sure they have koldunic sorcery, but at this point everyone and their mother knows blood sorcery. And honestly vicissitude in itself isn't that interesting either, sure you can manipulate flesh and bone, but that's it. First dot is insanely useful though.

    I will admit that Kupala is pretty interesting, but that's about it.

  • Prometheas
    replied
    I don't really have a problem with the Tzimisce, though I will agree that the eastern-european stuff should be toned down.

    As for Vissicitude, why not make it, Protean, and Serpentis(refluffed depending on user) into a single "branched" discipline Like Quietus or Valeren. Have different bloodlines within the 3 clans develop along whichever of the 3 branches better fits.

    Lore-wise, the Gangrel, Tzimisce, and Settites are hinted at as being interrelated by multiple sources(see the set and osiris thread for examples). So slipping that in wouldn't require more than a few background tweaks.

    Character-wise, as others have pointed out protean fits more thematically with some of the tzimisce characters(and I'd argue serpentis would be perfect for making a Koschei inspired tzimisce). It'll also probably be easier on storytellers to accept Protean or Serpentis Tzimisce characters if they feel Vissicitude is overpowered.

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  • Taggie
    replied
    I like the posthumanism of Metamorphosis, the mysticism of Auspex, the territorial monstrosity and the mad science, about the only part I don't like is the Bram Stoker inspired mockery of Eastern Europeans and Romani, but that can be side lined far easier from Tzim than from Ravnos, EDIT: Stoker may have meant to be 'fair for his day', that doesn't make it acceptable now.
    Last edited by Taggie; 04-15-2022, 02:19 AM.

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  • Lysander
    replied
    Thanks for some of feedback folks.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Lysander View Post
    I found them hard because of how do you portray a clan member that makes an effort to be a alien monster divorced from human concerns
    The above posts on this are very good, I'll try to simplify it in four strategies:

    1 - Don't do it. Unless you really want to go for the Necroscope reference in its most extreme depiction in DSotBH, you don't need to do the alien monster stuff to still deal with any or all the other aspects of the clan that you want, including dealing with clan mates that are already there;

    2 - Overdo it embracing the difficulty, A.K.A. make a poser, someone who isn't nearly there but tries hard to pretend. Bonus points if the character go over-the-top on inhuman behavior to throw others off, and then hides to puke and cry;

    3 - Go for detachment first and only add to it when you feel like it. Most "alien thought" in fiction is just the character being detached as if others were just artificial, as robots, dolls or something. Chose one metaphor and literally use it as a mental shortcut, every time you want to delve into the detachment stop and picture the other characters as if they were literally that (dolls, robots, imaginary) for yours;

    4 - Look for inspiration on tales of people that stand off in the way that interests you the most. It may be some mental condition like Autism or OCD, it may be Cultural Shock, it may be the effect of some drug. But for this my best suggestion is to chose carefully and then dive into your chosen inspiration, not just copy a trope, movie or stereotype, but actually reach for the people that go through that and learn about them from them.

    You can also simply read Necroscope to copy the source material, if it is your thing.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Ironically, as far as Tzimisce being interested in "trans-vampirism"/transhumanism/so forth, one of the better sources of inspiration I found for that angle ended up being the Ordo Dracul book from first edition Requiem. Its material on alchemical mysticism (both external and internal), embodying mystical archetypes, and finding ways to work around certain inherent vampire weaknesses ended up being the sort of things I had always wanted to see certain branches of the Tzimisce and the Path of Metamorphosis focus on.

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  • Kharnov
    replied
    Originally posted by Lysander View Post
    I found them hard because of how do you portray a clan member that makes an effort to be a alien monster divorced from human concerns
    There are two parts to this answer. Firstly, all vampires are, to some extent, divorced from human concerns. They have concerns that are fundamentally inhuman, and there are human concerns that generally do not apply to them. Revenants are the only humans that can come even close to understanding the primal violent rage of a vampire's Beast. They do not need to worry about harm or sickness the way that humans do, because they cannot (themselves) get sick and can heal nearly any trauma that we can imagine so long as they have sufficient vitae. They are extremely resistant to many of the concerns that human beings have regarding the environment, such as hot or cold weather, while also being vulnerable to particular conditions like sunlight that a human would not normally need to be concerned with.

    Plenty of vampires outside of the Tzimisce Clan can adopt habits and practices fundamentally divorced from conventional human experience; this is why Nosferatu can set up warrens down in the sewers when the lack of hygiene would be a severe threat to any human attempting to do the same. Depicting the Tzimisces' aspired divorce from normal human concerns can be achieved by looking at what human concerns simply do not matter to them as vampires, and instead focusing on what concerns that the vampiric condition creates: "food and shelter" mean very different things for a vampire than they do a human.

    However, the other half of this equation is that most vampires cannot separate themselves from conventional human concerns entirely. Part of this has to do with the fact that most vampires hunt their prey by mingling with humans, which means that they generally need to be good at "faking it" even if they don't genuinely need to worry about things. If you dress like it's the middle of summer in the dead of winter simply because the cold cannot really harm you until it's capable of freezing you solid, you are going to stand out like a sore thumb. Similarly, vampires themselves may not need to care about hygiene for their own sake, but they need to consider the impact that it has on their hunting, from the more humourous example of stinking like an open sewer because showering isn't really necessary for your survival, to the more serious concern of becoming a plague-bearer if you pick up some kind of disease that cannot hurt you but can be passed on to your victims if you aren't careful.

    Moreover, I tend to view the Tzimisce opinion that they are fundamentally divorced from their pre-Embrace human condition to be one of their greatest intellectual errors. Given a long enough time period, they can eventually become truly inhuman monsters as old habits and opinions from life are overcome or erased by the habits and opinions that will develop in something with fundamentally different needs. But for the first few centuries of life, habits from your mortal life are likely to maintain an influence on your identity as a member of the undead, especially when some of those habits need to be maintained to keep up your cover while you hunt humans. Eventually you can become a proper Fiend that can stalk humans from the shadows and get the blood you need through the raw power of Disciplines rather than needing to mix and mingle with your human prey, but for a while you're going to need to be able to pretend to be human in order to get close enough to your victims. And even when your old mortal habits fade away, those abandoned mortal habits will still shape how your immortal habits have developed, because growth and change are processes of continuity. The truth is that most Tzimisce simply are not as fundamentally alien to the human condition as they like to imagine themselves, beyond the hoary old Methuselahs that only leave their hidden lairs to drain some unfortunate soul and toss them into a ditch before retiring to their haven to continue pursuing their mysterious goals.

    To depict the inhumanity of a Tzimisce, you don't need to imagine something fundamentally Other. You simply need to imagine how something human-like would develop given a different set of needs and priorities; the Tzimisce simply do this more actively than most other vampires.

    As a final thought, I imagine that the Tzimisce that are likely to become the most fundamentally different from humanity are the ones that are largely indifferent to it, because the ones actively striving to contrast themselves simply for the sake of it are more likely to simply end up a distorted mirror of the thing they are defining themselves against, rather than truly becoming something different.

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  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied
    Originally posted by Lysander View Post
    I found them hard because of how do you portray a clan member that makes an effort to be a alien monster divorced from human concerns
    Except not every Tzimisce is an alien monster just like not every Toreador is an art-obsessed fop nor is every Gangrel some mangy loner that would prefer the wilderness to the cities.

    A stereotype does not encompass the entirety of Clan. There are plenty of Tzimisce that aren't vicious monsters or inhuman Metamorphists. Hell look at Dracula. While being an Elder he is less human than younger Kindred, he's not some inhuman monster that lives in a haven made of humans.

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  • Lysander
    replied
    I found them hard because of how do you portray a clan member that makes an effort to be a alien monster divorced from human concerns

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  • AkatsukiLeader13
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    What do you think hard about them in play?
    I can't say for them but for me it was being allowed to play them prior to V20 Anarchs Unbound as prior to that I frequently ran into the issue where I couldn't play them as the table would bar Sabbat Clans. Which really only barred the Tzimisce, Blood Brothers, Harbingers of Skull and Salubri Attritubes as everything else had non-Sabbat versions that were allowed. Hell there was one time where I couldn't even play an Old Clan because as far as the ST was concerned, Old Clan Tzimisce were isolationists that stay in Eastern European and would have no reason to be in the USA.

    Thankfully Anarchs Unbound finally undid that silly notion that there wouldn't have been Tzimisce that remained Anarch after the Convention of Thorns and that the mainline Clan isn't some hivemind of fleshcrafting fiends.

    The other issue I have run into is people abusing or going overboard with Fleshcrafting but usually that's also a case of the player running roughshot over a less experienced ST that could also happen with other Clans and Disciplines.

    Leave a comment:


  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Lysander View Post
    I never found the Tzimsce clan boring at all. Just dam hard to play in a worthy fashion in a game.
    What do you think hard about them in play?

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  • Lysander
    replied
    I never found the Tzimsce clan boring at all. Just dam hard to play in a worthy fashion in a game.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post

    Because this is how burden of proof works, you make a random claim and just say the other party just isn't interested in seeing things that way.

    Defending someone else's random and unsubstantiated soapbox about Fifth Edition is indeed a fruitless discussion and there is no point in furthering it.
    Take a warning and leave the thread. If you have an issue with a poster, report them.

    Leave a comment:


  • SetiteFriend
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    You'll keep waiting because it is by definition subjective enough that you can't see it if you keep taking direct assertions at face value. It is kind of a reading you don't make and aren't willing to make.
    Because this is how burden of proof works, you make a random claim and just say the other party just isn't interested in seeing things that way.

    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    And that's ok. It just means that our arguments on the matter will keep passing right through each other because we're just not talking the same language here. I at least won't try to further this line of thought, it would take an effort I'm not willing to make or even sure I can.
    Defending someone else's random and unsubstantiated soapbox about Fifth Edition is indeed a fruitless discussion and there is no point in furthering it.

    Leave a comment:


  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
    I'm sorry I should have been clearer here. I was referring to the gangrel and Protean. if the core clans are the player clans protean qualifies since its uniquely gangrel and leans into animal clan gimmick.


    I was also referring to v5 blood sorcery rather than previous Ed Thaumaturgy. Were it feels more like a series of blood based powers than a magic rule set.
    Oh, my bad.

    But Protean is more of a case of badly written power than purposefully non-broad. Shapechanging is as much a traditional vampire power as possible, and Protean tries to cover all the spectrum of iconic transformation through its 5 levels. So I wouldn't really say it is a unique and niche gimmick, despite it being made unnecessarily rigid to the point of Snake-Themed Protean having to be mechanically its own Discipline.

    Requiem 2nd edition did it perfectly, and the V5 mechanic works far better for Protean, but its design purpose was clearly more aligned to the other main Disciplines.

    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
    Of course it is pedantism, I've clarified time and time again that I meant the mechanics of Thin-blood Alchemy and their Merits and Flaws being a new thing, not TBs per se.
    It isn't in the sense that none of those mechanics is really new, despite you still claiming they are. None of the themes, either. ToTb had it all, all those mechanics (or equivalent ones just as detailed, but in need of a heavy update, which they got), all those themes. There's nothing new at all about them in V5 except being more common (which was expected).

    That said, though:
    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
    Also, since they've had unique mechanics for 23 years, it makes less sense that their mechanics being expanded means V5 was originally about them?
    I agree with this and personally I'm not aggravated by them in any way.

    While I do agree completely with the reading that the game is strongly centered on them, their depiction and rules by themselves, especially in the core, do not bother me and I actually liked a lot the idea of eliminating Generation differences among Thin Bloods (making them into kind of baseline, you can't really go lower than that). This last one, by the way, is the single rule on TB that is really new and unique to V5, and I think was a good idea for both lore and game design.

    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
    But I'm still waiting for the text (or subtext) that somehow supports this "You are intended to play people who are barely vampires, fighting the REAL vampires. You are intended to play someone who barely has any powers, but also barely has a bane and has high humanity, who fights the vampires by exploiting the subtle advantages of having high humanity and barely any bane."
    You'll keep waiting because it is by definition subjective enough that you can't see it if you keep taking direct assertions at face value. It is kind of a reading you don't make and aren't willing to make.

    And that's ok. It just means that our arguments on the matter will keep passing right through each other because we're just not talking the same language here. I at least won't try to further this line of thought, it would take an effort I'm not willing to make or even sure I can.

    Leave a comment:

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