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All the clans have committed heinous acts, yet the tremere are the most hated

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
    Not everyone hated them, just the local Tzimisce, Gangrel, and Nosferatu. Notably, the Ventrue actively allied with the Tremere relatively early on, which is a big part of why they are the two main pillars of the Camarilla.
    Yeah, the hatred for the Tremere was mostly relegated to Europe. Many vampires in other parts of the world could care less. But the Nosferatu would naturally dislike the Tremere - they have a sense of brotherhood and camaraderie that exceeds that of most other clans, even somewhat surpassing the Camarilla/Sabbat divide. Having their members, even ones in other parts of the world, get picked off and turned into mindless slaves would generally be something the whole clan would unite to some degree against. With the Gangrel, many of them would admittedly not care too much or would pick up and go elsewhere, but even with the ones who didn't care too much, I'd have a hard time imagining them getting too chummy with the Tremere, and it would be easy to take a stand against them when the opportunity presented itself.

    Really, had things gone a little differently and the Ventrue not made overtures to the Tremere, it would have been pretty easy for the Tremere to end up as part of the Sabbat (the younger Tzimisci probably didn't have much beef with the Tremere, they were blood bound by their elders and forced to fight them).

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    • #17
      All Clans do horrible things, but the Tremere were highly successful and defeated many other factions. If somebody picks a fight with you and wins, you’ll hate them more than somebody who picked a fight with your and lost to you.

      Though, I do think that the setting creators went way overboard with the factions that hate the Tremere and the ones that the Tremere had to fight. Mages from the Order or Hermes, Tzimisce, Nosferatu, Gangrel, their own Gargoyle creations, Assamites. It’s too much, it just seems silly.

      I think I would have left out the Gangrel and Nosferatu. Having a conflict with them was just random and pointless. Then I would not have the Gargoyles revolt, keep them as servants aside from a few who broke free from Tremere domination.
      Last edited by Sergeant Brother; 03-24-2022, 09:13 PM.

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      • #18
        The Tremere are a sect as much of a clan. More like the Giovanni, FoS and Assamites.
        Only the FoS and Assamiters aren't nearly as organized and controlling of their members. The FoS are more happy to chill in the background, while the Assamites
        The Giovanni are organized, they're even more agressive, but they're nowhere near as competitive in the market as the Tremere: Thaumaturgy is more useful than necromancy, and fewer people envy necromancers as their practice is all-too-often pretty disgusting.

        The Tremere are closer to you than the independents. They don't have a dangerous ideology and can be part of the Cam no problem. FoS make great friends and business partners, but Tremere are great business partners and terrible friends. You're doing business with someone you hate but you often can't afford not to do business with them. See RL global trade for example. A lot of business is done with places we really wouldn't want to do business with if we had much choice.

        The Tremere aren't a clan that put great stock in being likeable. Being smart often leads to good social skills, Sure, and I'll grant that physicists in continental europe don't have the same social difficulties as they do in Britain or the USA, but Tremere like to recruit hardcore nerds that're happy to be within a rigidly defined system. If we look at character gen, your standard tremere is going to be a mental primary, and if he's a social secondary, the points would be far better spent in manipulation than charisma or appearance, the attributes that determine likeability. If he's a social tertiary, 1/4/1 is really optimal.

        Also players that choose Tremere often suck shit and grossly overestimate their intelligence, over-appreciate the spectacle of thaumaturgical power,, and will brandish the Tremere brand at any time they get into trouble with other players. It's easy to hate that. Plus a Tremere powergamer is going to be calling out spells rather than quietly rolling 14 dice like a powergamer using any other clan, so it's a lot more noticeable. I of course don't play Tremere like this because I'm actually extremely humble.


        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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        • #19
          As a faction the Tremere predate the WHOLE OF VtM. Tremere the magus was actually one of the main villains played by the creator of VtM. That’s why they are so central in the game background, and especially in its earlier editions

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          • #20
            Originally the Tremere were just the vampire wizard clan, no more, no less.

            Alternatively, the issue could be that the writers kept using the Tremere as an all-purpose plot device whenever new lore had to be back filled or a new situation had to be explained.

            Want to introduce the assamites, but need them restricted, just add Tremere.
            Want to rewrite the assamite clan weakness, just add Tremere
            Want to explain the Salubri history, just add Tremere.
            Want a massive kindred war during Dark Ages, just add Tremere.
            Want to add Gargoyles, just add Tremere.
            Need a reason why the Kuei-Jin can't leave San Francisco, just add Tremere.
            Need a built-in plot point to crash that San Franscisco containment, just add corrupt Tremere.

            The writers eventually realized they couldn't use the Tremere for revising/explaining older lore, so they did the exact same thing with the Baali. Sadly, the various writers kept messing with the Tremere into the horrid 5th edition nonsense for the clan.

            So if I had to guess why people "hate" the Tremere, it would be due to the fact that as a starter ST the Tremere complicate the hell out of the timeline. As a Player, Thaumaturgy adds a whole hell of a lot of system bloat that you have to figure out, not to mention the ST has to keep track of power creep. Then lastly when in game since many people don't bother absorb all the bloated mechanics and messed up back story, they get upstaged at a critical moment by someone who did.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Haquim View Post
              As a faction the Tremere predate the WHOLE OF VtM. Tremere the magus was actually one of the main villains played by the creator of VtM. That’s why they are so central in the game background, and especially in its earlier editions
              True, their fictional history goes back to the old Ars Magica RPG.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                All Clans do horrible things, but the Tremere were highly successful and defeated many other factions. If somebody picks a fight with you and wins, you’ll hate them more than somebody who picked a fight with your and lost to you.

                Though, I do think that the setting creators went way overboard with the factions that hate the Tremere and the ones that the Tremere had to fight. Mages from the Order or Hermes, Tzimisce, Nosferatu, Gangrel, their own Gargoyle creations, Assamites. It’s too much, it just seems silly.

                I think I would have left out the Gangrel and Nosferatu. Having a conflict with them was just random and pointless. Then I would not have the Gargoyles revolt, keep them as servants aside from a few who broke free from Tremere domination.
                Its kind of funny, because that means the tremere probably are the greatest contributor to the metaplot.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                  Originally the Tremere were just the vampire wizard clan, no more, no less.

                  Alternatively, the issue could be that the writers kept using the Tremere as an all-purpose plot device whenever new lore had to be back filled or a new situation had to be explained.

                  Want to introduce the assamites, but need them restricted, just add Tremere.
                  Want to rewrite the assamite clan weakness, just add Tremere
                  Want to explain the Salubri history, just add Tremere.
                  Want a massive kindred war during Dark Ages, just add Tremere.
                  Want to add Gargoyles, just add Tremere.
                  Need a reason why the Kuei-Jin can't leave San Francisco, just add Tremere.
                  Need a built-in plot point to crash that San Franscisco containment, just add corrupt Tremere.

                  The writers eventually realized they couldn't use the Tremere for revising/explaining older lore, so they did the exact same thing with the Baali. Sadly, the various writers kept messing with the Tremere into the horrid 5th edition nonsense for the clan.

                  So if I had to guess why people "hate" the Tremere, it would be due to the fact that as a starter ST the Tremere complicate the hell out of the timeline. As a Player, Thaumaturgy adds a whole hell of a lot of system bloat that you have to figure out, not to mention the ST has to keep track of power creep. Then lastly when in game since many people don't bother absorb all the bloated mechanics and messed up back story, they get upstaged at a critical moment by someone who did.

                  Yeah it kind of odd that the tremere are used to add flavor to many clans.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Hello View Post

                    Its kind of funny, because that means the tremere probably are the greatest contributor to the metaplot.
                    It’s highly probable that the Tremere are the single Clan with the greatest effect on the metaplot.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                      It’s highly probable that the Tremere are the single Clan with the greatest effect on the metaplot.
                      Shhhh, don't tell that to the other clans, they want to feel special.


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                      • #26
                        I think most Clans are pretty happy not being as "special" as the Tremere.

                        *casts a gaze towards the smoldering ruins of the Vienna Chantry*

                        Being the favourite chew-toy of the metaplot doesn't tend to be a fun spot.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                          I think most Clans are pretty happy not being as "special" as the Tremere.

                          *casts a gaze towards the smoldering ruins of the Vienna Chantry*

                          Being the favourite chew-toy of the metaplot doesn't tend to be a fun spot.

                          IDK, I would rather know how to make an homonculus than run really fast. Also vienna makes no sense, how did they get past all of the security?


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Hello View Post
                            IDK, I would rather know how to make an homonculus than run really fast. Also vienna makes no sense, how did they get past all of the security?
                            To be clear, I'm not trying to dunk on the Tremere here, I am trying to be sympathetic. I am pointing out that constantly being put in the centre of the metaplot has often not worked out for them. Being the explanation for a variety of plot developments is a lot of why everyone *hates* them, like when they cursed the Banu Haqim. Or has ended up putting them in the line of fire for some very ugly beatdowns, like the burning of the Vienna Chantry.

                            As for the how, there's a grocery list of possible explanations. The Technocracy did it. The Arcanum helped. A traitor on the inside, with a grocery list of possible explanations for *that*. How it happened isn't really the point. The point is that is the sort of thing that being the most "special" Clan in the metaplot gets you. It sucks a lot of the time.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Hello View Post
                              IDK, I would rather know how to make an homonculus than run really fast.
                              A homunculus will not save you from a hellfire missile, nor from incendiaries. Running fast...probably won't either, but it'll at least give you a shot.

                              Originally posted by Hello View Post
                              Also vienna makes no sense, how did they get past all of the security?

                              Probably actual wizards. The Tremere get Thaumaturgy; Mages are Mages.
                              Alternately, high-tech humans.
                              Alternately, both.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                                The Tremere were "usurpers", meaning they are not descended from an Antedeluvian. The clan is around 1200 years old. Seems old to us, but the other clans date back to 8000 years or more. There are still plenty of elders around who remember a time when there weren't any Tremere at all.
                                One point of information, Clan Tremere is about 800 years old. They became vampires in the 1200's

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