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All the clans have committed heinous acts, yet the tremere are the most hated

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Joanna_Crone View Post
    A homunculus will not save you from a hellfire missile, nor from incendiaries. Running fast...probably won't either, but it'll at least give you a shot.

    [/FONT]
    Probably actual wizards. The Tremere get Thaumaturgy; Mages are Mages.
    Alternately, high-tech humans.
    Alternately, both.
    I don't see your point here, no one is going to see a missle coming, so no one will get the chance to run, it does not matter if you're a tremere, gangrel, brujah, toreador, or whatever other clan, you're, dead. Plus if you're dumb enough to get targeted by weapons like those, than maybe you deserve to get blasted to bits.

    Technology wouldn't matter because, if I remember correctly there are rituals for that, plus tremere have counter magic.


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    • #32
      Ignore this, wrote the same comment and dont know how to delete.
      Last edited by Hello; 03-26-2022, 11:18 AM.


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      • #33
        Originally posted by Thoth View Post
        Sadly, the various writers kept messing with the Tremere into the horrid 5th edition nonsense for the clan.
        They lost their headquarters, leading council and ability to blood bond, then a lot of them ditched their organisations. The only metaplot they're leading now is their own. There's no evidence to speak of that makes them (deliberately) responsible for the Second Inquisition, the Beckoning, the Sabbat's rapture, the Anarch uprising or the entry of the Banu Haqim and Lasombra into the Camarilla.
        Last edited by Spencer from The Hills; 03-26-2022, 11:14 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

          They lost their headquarters, leading council and ability to blood bond, then a lot of them ditched their organisations. The only metaplot they're leading now is their own. There's no evidence to speak of that makes them responsible for the Second Inquisition, the Beckoning, the Sabbat's rapture, the Anarch uprising or the entry of the Banu Haqim and Lasombra into the Camarilla.
          Im pretty sure what Thoth meant was that the writers messed with the tremere by making them the weakest clan in V5. I could be wrong though.
          Last edited by Hello; 03-26-2022, 01:01 PM.


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          • #35
            Yeah, I agree with Thoth, I’m a long time Tremere fan and I don’t like the V5 changes to the Clans. It’s not about reducing their relative power or influence, in fact I think that they went way overboard in previous editions with making the Tremere overly important, but I think that destroying the Inner Council and fracturing the Clan removed much of what made the Clan interesting and gave them a really ham-fisted “take that”

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            • #36
              The Inner Council set them apart in organisation from most clans, but I don't see how a couple of new dissident factions makes them less interesting. Did they become less interesting when the Tremere Antitribu were introduced? Even if you can't stand House Carna as an idea, House Tremere is right there.
              Last edited by Spencer from The Hills; 03-26-2022, 12:59 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
                The Inner Council set them apart in organisation from most clans, but I don't see how a couple of new dissident factions makes them less interesting. Did they become less interesting when the Tremere Antitribu were introduced? Even if you can't stand House Carna as an idea, House Tremere is right there.

                They feel a lot more like a club than a mighty clan. House Carna would have worked great as a secret society within Clan tremere that focused on the study of pagan magic. Maybe instead of fracturing the tremere they should have introduced more secret societies within the clan. I feel it would add a good amount of flavor. Maybe have some of the societies within the tremere war with one another, like having the horned society (infernalists) go up against the Eye of the serpent (followers of set). And others form alliances because they are somewhat similar to one another, or because their specialized fields of study mesh well together, like the Rodolfo and Trismegistus.
                Last edited by Hello; 03-26-2022, 03:55 PM.


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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Hello View Post
                  Im pretty sure what Thoth meant was that the writers messed with the tremere by making them the weakest clan in V5. I could be wrong though.
                  Pretty much, though there is another aspect to it that just confuses the heck out of me.

                  The Tremere clan were always portrayed as less numerous than the other main line clans. This makes sense since they tend recruit with an eye for the mystical and hunt down rogue embraces and traitors. Add on top of this the blood binding to the council and the fact that Dominate is a clan discipline and you would have a very tight knit lock step clan. The result being that the Tremere don't step out of line or out on their own much. If anything they like to hide in their chantries and stay out of the way. In other words they stay out of the limelight.

                  But then 5th rolls around and it is decided the SI ignores the entire Giovanni clan despite it having an HQ and being heavily involved with organized crime, they ignore all the hundreds or possibly thousands of brujah being uppity across the globe, they ignore Tzimisce and their flesh crafted monstrosities, and instead cruise missile the Tremere HQ..... when the Tremere had a ritual for several editions that causes all records of a haven/chantry to automatically self corrupt, self delete, or get misplaced.

                  Excuse me, waiter, yes I would like to send this retcon ravioli back for something better please.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                    But then 5th rolls around and it is decided the SI ignores the entire Giovanni clan despite it having an HQ and being heavily involved with organized crime, they ignore all the hundreds or possibly thousands of brujah being uppity across the globe, they ignore Tzimisce and their flesh crafted monstrosities, and instead cruise missile the Tremere HQ..... when the Tremere had a ritual for several editions that causes all records of a haven/chantry to automatically self corrupt, self delete, or get misplaced.

                    Excuse me, waiter, yes I would like to send this retcon ravioli back for something better please.
                    The Giovanni leadership was destroyed by the SI and the Mausoleum, leading to the capture/death of Augustus Giovanni.

                    But yes, the Tremere Chantry in Vienna was targeted specifically for the same reason that Wolverine or Worf is constantly getting their ass kicked or they want the big wrestler to get an epic win. The Chantry in Vienna was a symbol of Tremere arrogance and invincibility for multiple editions as well as the most recognizable vampire stronghold in existence. They wanted it destroyed to illustrate to the vampire players that the Second Inquisition could be taken seriously and was an existential threat to vampiredom.

                    Instead, a lot of fans complained about how humans could NEVER beat the Tremere and it was ridiculous the Inquisition was any sort of threat whatsoever.
                    Last edited by CTPhipps; 03-26-2022, 10:29 PM.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #40
                      When you are not around, the Tremere sneak into your house. Then they move all the furniture by a quart inch, rearrange all your comic books, dog-ear pages in books your would never dog-ear, touch your dice (that is all they do to the dice) and lick your food.

                      And that is why smart people hate the Tremere,

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        The Giovanni leadership was destroyed by the SI and the Mausoleum, leading to the capture/death of Augustus Giovanni.

                        But yes, the Tremere Chantry in Vienna was targeted specifically for the same reason that Wolverine or Worf is constantly getting their ass kicked or they want the big wrestler to get an epic win. The Chantry in Vienna was a symbol of Tremere arrogance and invincibility for multiple editions as well as the most recognizable vampire stronghold in existence. They wanted it destroyed to illustrate to the vampire players that the Second Inquisition could be taken seriously and was an existential threat to vampiredom.

                        Instead, a lot of fans complained about how humans could NEVER beat the Tremere and it was ridiculous the Inquisition was any sort of threat whatsoever.
                        Maybe in theory. In practice, destroying such iconic locations just makes the WOD less cool. Y'know, I play various Marvel and DC video games and one of the fangasm experiences I have in such games is visiting iconic locations like the Hall of Justice, the Legion of Doom, Stark Tower, the Fantastic Four's Baxter Building, the Batcave.

                        And it's not like these locations being inviolate ever made the player characters feel invincible. No matter how tough the iconic locations were, when guys come after you with flamethrowers, the last thing you feel is invincible. You are not the Vienna Chantry. You are a player character who can get incinerated just by losing track of time.
                        Last edited by CajunKhan; 03-26-2022, 11:35 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Moving back around to the response of other Clans to the Tremere, "Cred" must be taken into consideration.

                          If an existing Clan victimizes members of your Clan, it's like whatever. That's just the Jyhad. Only those close to the victim will care, the rest will at best add it to the mountain of reasons to hate their old enemy.

                          If an upstart group, that aren't even "real vampires", victimize your Clanmates, and then get away with it? That's everyone's problem. That makes the CLAN look bad. That makes the Clan look weak.

                          And like any street gang caring about its street cred, vampire Clans cannot stand being made to look weak. Both for pride reasons, and because it invites further attacks from other Clans. Half the Jyhad is built, not on actually being unassailable, but projecting enough strength that no one would risk testing it.

                          Whether it's the Tzimisce having their blood stolen to create the Usurpers in the first place, or the Gangrel or Nosferatu having their members captured and twisted into mindless slave monstrosities, they could not abide such attacks. Not from a tiny, illegitimate bloodline, with pretensions of being a Clan, that (at the time) weren't even half a millennia old. They HAD to be opposed, and on a Clan-wide basis.

                          It's the principle of the matter.
                          Last edited by Bluecho; 03-27-2022, 01:42 AM.


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                          • #43
                            I would also like to state that "hated" is also a word with some context.

                            No one liked the Tremere in the Dark Ages. They were diablerists, upstarts, Caitiff, and a bunch of guys who came out of nowhere to kill the Salubri Clan. I don't think anyone liked the Salubri Clan for being a bunch of holier than thou vegans (for lack of a better comparison) but some rando strangling the hippie next door is something you notice. Especially if he moves into said hippie's apartment and wants to show up at the apartment house meetings.

                            However, while everyone hated the Tremere, it should be noted that very few vampires were motivated to DO anything about them. The Tzimisce and Tremere fought with some allies of the former but for the most part, the Tremere are just something most vampires tut-tutted about. It's not THEIR problem that there's a bunch of crazy wizard diablerists on the loose as long as that's restricted to Transylvania.

                            Usually when Tremere show up in OTHER places, they're given snubbings and talked trash about. The Prince let's them in because you don't want to piss off this mysterious group of warlocks but its not like they wanted to attend the castle parties anyway. The Tremere in the Dark Ages are doing their own weird things.

                            Its only when the Camarilla is formed that they're now forced to let them in.
                            Last edited by CTPhipps; 03-27-2022, 02:24 AM.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #44
                              I actually think the Ventrue and Toreador rather like the Tremere. The Ventrue have always come out on top in their conflicts against everyone else (as far as they're concerned) and the Toreador simply don't conflict unless they want some amusement. In other words, neither clan feels like it really has anything to fear from the Tremere. On the other hand, the Tremere are naturally well behaved and have always sought out ways to be useful to the Camarilla. I don't think the powers that be care as much about sorcery as they care about the Tremere being adept at conspiracy and naturally graced with subtlety and competence.

                              It's also interesting to note that, if the Tremere were "saved" by the inquisition, the anarch revolt and the founding of the Camarilla.. well.. the inquisition was started by the Toreador, the Ventrue were responsible for the Anarch revolt (as they were leading the elder faction) and the Toreador and Ventrue created the idea of the Camarilla. Looks to me like the three clans are thick as thieves.

                              But also keep in mind that the Tremere, like any decent cult, use conflicts with outsiders to increase their own influence over their members, so they're actually likely to play up even friendly rivalries in order to keep control within the clan.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Gothik_Knight View Post
                                I actually think the Ventrue and Toreador rather like the Tremere. The Ventrue have always come out on top in their conflicts against everyone else (as far as they're concerned) and the Toreador simply don't conflict unless they want some amusement. In other words, neither clan feels like it really has anything to fear from the Tremere. On the other hand, the Tremere are naturally well behaved and have always sought out ways to be useful to the Camarilla. I don't think the powers that be care as much about sorcery as they care about the Tremere being adept at conspiracy and naturally graced with subtlety and competence.

                                It's also interesting to note that, if the Tremere were "saved" by the inquisition, the anarch revolt and the founding of the Camarilla.. well.. the inquisition was started by the Toreador, the Ventrue were responsible for the Anarch revolt (as they were leading the elder faction) and the Toreador and Ventrue created the idea of the Camarilla. Looks to me like the three clans are thick as thieves.

                                But also keep in mind that the Tremere, like any decent cult, use conflicts with outsiders to increase their own influence over their members, so they're actually likely to play up even friendly rivalries in order to keep control within the clan.
                                Transylvania Chronicles actually states the Tremere did a lot to cover up that the Inquisition was their fuckup. Goratrix bringing about the end of the Knights Templar to loot their goodies is apparently what clued the Catholic Church to not just the existence of vampires (they've known about them a long time) but just how many of them were inside their ranks, specifically the Lasombra, and triggered an interior purge that spread out.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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