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All the clans have committed heinous acts, yet the tremere are the most hated

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    The Tremere are a sect as much of a clan. More like the Giovanni, FoS and Assamites.
    Only the FoS and Assamiters aren't nearly as organized and controlling of their members. The FoS are more happy to chill in the background, while the Assamites
    The Giovanni are organized, they're even more agressive, but they're nowhere near as competitive in the market as the Tremere: Thaumaturgy is more useful than necromancy, and fewer people envy necromancers as their practice is all-too-often pretty disgusting.

    The Tremere are closer to you than the independents. They don't have a dangerous ideology and can be part of the Cam no problem. FoS make great friends and business partners, but Tremere are great business partners and terrible friends. You're doing business with someone you hate but you often can't afford not to do business with them. See RL global trade for example. A lot of business is done with places we really wouldn't want to do business with if we had much choice.

    The Tremere aren't a clan that put great stock in being likeable. Being smart often leads to good social skills, Sure, and I'll grant that physicists in continental europe don't have the same social difficulties as they do in Britain or the USA, but Tremere like to recruit hardcore nerds that're happy to be within a rigidly defined system. If we look at character gen, your standard tremere is going to be a mental primary, and if he's a social secondary, the points would be far better spent in manipulation than charisma or appearance, the attributes that determine likeability. If he's a social tertiary, 1/4/1 is really optimal.

    Also players that choose Tremere often suck shit and grossly overestimate their intelligence, over-appreciate the spectacle of thaumaturgical power,, and will brandish the Tremere brand at any time they get into trouble with other players. It's easy to hate that. Plus a Tremere powergamer is going to be calling out spells rather than quietly rolling 14 dice like a powergamer using any other clan, so it's a lot more noticeable. I of course don't play Tremere like this because I'm actually extremely humble.

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  • Sergeant Brother
    replied
    All Clans do horrible things, but the Tremere were highly successful and defeated many other factions. If somebody picks a fight with you and wins, you’ll hate them more than somebody who picked a fight with your and lost to you.

    Though, I do think that the setting creators went way overboard with the factions that hate the Tremere and the ones that the Tremere had to fight. Mages from the Order or Hermes, Tzimisce, Nosferatu, Gangrel, their own Gargoyle creations, Assamites. It’s too much, it just seems silly.

    I think I would have left out the Gangrel and Nosferatu. Having a conflict with them was just random and pointless. Then I would not have the Gargoyles revolt, keep them as servants aside from a few who broke free from Tremere domination.
    Last edited by Sergeant Brother; 03-24-2022, 09:13 PM.

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  • AnubisXy
    replied
    Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
    Not everyone hated them, just the local Tzimisce, Gangrel, and Nosferatu. Notably, the Ventrue actively allied with the Tremere relatively early on, which is a big part of why they are the two main pillars of the Camarilla.
    Yeah, the hatred for the Tremere was mostly relegated to Europe. Many vampires in other parts of the world could care less. But the Nosferatu would naturally dislike the Tremere - they have a sense of brotherhood and camaraderie that exceeds that of most other clans, even somewhat surpassing the Camarilla/Sabbat divide. Having their members, even ones in other parts of the world, get picked off and turned into mindless slaves would generally be something the whole clan would unite to some degree against. With the Gangrel, many of them would admittedly not care too much or would pick up and go elsewhere, but even with the ones who didn't care too much, I'd have a hard time imagining them getting too chummy with the Tremere, and it would be easy to take a stand against them when the opportunity presented itself.

    Really, had things gone a little differently and the Ventrue not made overtures to the Tremere, it would have been pretty easy for the Tremere to end up as part of the Sabbat (the younger Tzimisci probably didn't have much beef with the Tremere, they were blood bound by their elders and forced to fight them).

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  • CajunKhan
    replied
    In addition to the reasons others have stated, the Tremere also truly acted as a clan. Sure, individual Ventrue were hated, but the clan as a whole doesn't get that much hate because they don't really act as a clan. The Nos are unified, but not aggressive about it. The Assamites mostly stuck to a small territory with the occasional individual venturing out and getting hired as an assassin. The Brujah were a random mess of individuals. The Gangrel....HAHAHAHAH!!! The Tremere were behaving in a frighteningly unified and aggressive way. The Tremere weren't a collection of individuals with individual ambitions, they were an empire of sorcerers.

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  • Reasor
    replied
    V20's "Lore of the Clans" has a really funny line about the pest control problems the Tremere must have had on their hands after having made enemies out of Tzimisce, the Nosferatu, and the Gangrel - all of whom specialize in the use of Animalism.

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  • Kharnov
    replied
    Claiming "shouldn't people actually hate the Ventrue?" misses the point that, actually, yeah, a lot of people hate the Ventrue. They tend to just be tolerated because few other vampires are willing to put as much work into cleaning up the messes of other vampires, or are as organized to do it, as the Ventrue.

    Also, the claim that a genocidal alarm bell was set off the second the Tremere came into existence is a gross exaggeration. At first, the Tzimisce were the only ones who actively hated them; pretty much everyone else just held them in extreme contempt, which is just as dangerous in Kindred society because it means you're disposable. The Gangrel and the Nosferatu came on board when the experimentation on their kin was revealed. Not everyone hated them, just the local Tzimisce, Gangrel, and Nosferatu. Notably, the Ventrue actively allied with the Tremere relatively early on, which is a big part of why they are the two main pillars of the Camarilla.

    PS: Forgot to mention, the mostly like answer to "how did people find out how the Gargoyles were made" is probably Auspex and Lots of Torture, since the Tzimisce were probably the ones to uncover it. A Nosferatu digging into the matter seems the other possible answer, since intelligence-gathering is one of their schticks.
    Last edited by Kharnov; 03-24-2022, 08:21 PM.

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  • Reasor
    replied
    As others have mentioned, the first Tremere were Johnny-come-latelies who upset the medieval social order and just declared themselves a force to be reckoned with from out of nowhere. They went from being just a mortal wizard cult to taking down a clan founder who had been walking the Earth since before the Flood while he was most vulnerable, in what would have seemed like the blink of an eye. They set the precedent that proved to the founders of the Sabbat that it could be done. The offense that the oldest and most paranoid and hidebound of elders of the other clans would have taken at this rocking of the boat has had nearly a thousand years to trickle down to the level of tonight's neonates.
    Last edited by Reasor; 03-24-2022, 05:24 PM.

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  • Black Fox
    replied
    The Tremere were "usurpers", meaning they are not descended from an Antedeluvian. The clan is around 1200 years old. Seems old to us, but the other clans date back to 8000 years or more. There are still plenty of elders around who remember a time when there weren't any Tremere at all.

    The analogy to Dracula isn't a match. No matter the temerity and arrogance of the mortal, his sire and its lineage were still vampires. The Tremere line though was seen as unnatural in itself, creating feelings of disgust we might feel towards the creations of Dr Moreau. People didn't see Moreau's Beast Folk as really the same beings as human beings, and neither did the vampires truly think the Tremere were actually "real" vampires. (Also see the creature of Dr Frakenstein.) Their origin tainted them. They were something else. Some obscene experiment.

    The creation of the clan was thus a complete shock, and they weren't accepted as a "legitimate" clan for hundreds of years, instead being seen as some kind of bastard, unholy monstrosity that had stolen powers not rightfully belonging to them. I would argue that at this time, the stigma associated with the Tremere was worse than with Caitiffs. Caitiffs were just bastards. Tremere were like some monstrosity that only seemed to be vampires. That reputation was only confirmed when the Tremere did all those acts you mentioned - kidnapping and experimenting on legitimate clans, waging war and taking land that seemed to have belonged to other vampires since time immemorial, developing magical power far in excess to what others had done, and so on. It meant the fear and disgust others had at the Tremere's strange origins were justified. It really wasn't until the founding of the Camarilla that the Tremere went from outcasts to acceptable members of vampire society.

    But even having improved their status, that reputation still carried over. Sires from the previous era instructed their childer to not trust them, and those childer saw all the other vampires and clans tell their childer the same thing. And when they saw that the Tremere clan was tightly knit and hostile to outsiders, this caution seemed justified. So they taught their childer that too, and so on. And so even while the Tremere are now seen as just another clan, there's still a bad reputation associated with them as a legacy of that era even if most vampires don't truly understand why that is.

    ​There's a strong argument to make that without the turmoil of the Anarch Revolt, and the Tremere's abilities to help the elders reimpose stability on vampire society, that'd they'd still not be truly accepted as legitimate vampires today.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Hello View Post

    A nosferatu in Russia wont care that 100 nosferatus were killed in germany. What I'm trying to get at is that most vampires wouldn't care that many of their clanmates were killed, because it takes time for information like that to travel, and many dont care what happens far away from them. Plus a modern age nosferatu, gangrel, and tzimisce wont care that a clan mate from 100 years ago was killed by a tremere, its not important in the modern age.
    I think its important to note that at least most vampires give a nod toward performative outrage. The Prince will talk at great length about evils of diablerie, the abomination of violating the Masquerade, and the importance of lineage. In truth, most vampires wouldn't care about the Tremere but they certainly are happy to shit talk them if it makes them look better as well as discourages people from following their path.

    In the Dark Ages, a bunch of Tzimisce being killed isn't a big deal and most people are happy.

    However, an entire clan VANISHING like the Salubri is still a big deal even if no one likes them. No one hated the Salubri either. That's some warning bells even then.

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  • Vilenecromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by Hello View Post


    But other clans had, koldunic sorcery, sadhana, necromancy, mortis, dark thaumathurgy, setite sorcery.
    Most of those are out of clan for almost everyone, requiring insane levels of effort to learn at all, represent in game as experience. This and the fact most vampires studied sorceries at the time for ascension based reasons, resulted in few sorcerers that actually did much politically. Heck, the Cappidocians, the most political of such sorcerers, were the least political of the main 13 clans. Heck, Cappidocian at the time was just studying life and death in a cave, trying to become like God, or supposedly eat God.

    Tremere were an entire clan that not only were very politically active, but also innately learned a blood sorcery. This made them prime targets in the dark ages, as everyone wanted to learn their secrets, which prompted the creation of Gargoyles.

    Politics and sorcery make people distrust you, and the Tremere became the best example of this.

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  • Hello
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    The Tremere aren't hated because of the atrocities they've committed. The Tremere are hated because they've played the game better than everyone else and came out of nowhere.

    The Assamites hate them because they cursed the Clan.

    The Tzimisce hate them because they stole their lands and killed so many of them.

    The Gangrel and Nosferatu hate them because they were used as experimentation fodder before taking a position as a High Clan despite being a bunch of Caitiff.

    The Brujah hate them because they're magocratic fascists.

    Or as Groundskeeper Willy said:

    A nosferatu in Russia wont care that 100 nosferatus were killed in germany. What I'm trying to get at is that most vampires wouldn't care that many of their clanmates were killed, because it takes time for information like that to travel, and many dont care what happens far away from them. Plus a modern age nosferatu, gangrel, and tzimisce wont care that a clan mate from 100 years ago was killed by a tremere, its not important in the modern age.

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  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    The hatred of the Tremere is something you can't analyze solely from a Watsonian perspective because of exactly things like the retcon of everyone having Blood Sorcery that happened later in the game-line after the Tremere hate was formalized into the setting.

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  • Hello
    replied
    Originally posted by Vilenecromancer View Post

    This. Coupled with the fact they possess blood sorcery which was made specifically to mimic the powers of the elders, makes everyone think, "they're too dangerous to be kept alive." The problem is the Camarilla doesn't want to lose such a powerful assest, so the Tremere are pretty much free to do whatever.

    But other clans had, koldunic sorcery, sadhana, necromancy, mortis, dark thaumathurgy, setite sorcery.

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  • Vilenecromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    The Tremere aren't hated because of the atrocities they've committed. The Tremere are hated because they've played the game better than everyone else and came out of nowhere.

    The Assamites hate them because they cursed the Clan.

    The Tzimisce hate them because they stole their lands and killed so many of them.

    The Gangrel and Nosferatu hate them because they were used as experimentation fodder before taking a position as a High Clan despite being a bunch of Caitiff.

    The Brujah hate them because they're magocratic fascists.

    Or as Groundskeeper Willy said:

    This. Coupled with the fact they possess blood sorcery which was made specifically to mimic the powers of the elders, makes everyone think, "they're too dangerous to be kept alive." The problem is the Camarilla doesn't want to lose such a powerful assest, so the Tremere are pretty much free to do whatever.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Hello View Post

    That seems logical, but if we went by the lore, the second the tremere were created, an alert was sent to every vampire in the world that they had to hate the tremere because they were usurpers, or something like that. Of course we would have to ignore that vlad tepes was also a usurper since he forced another vampire to embrace him.
    Ehhhh.

    Even then, that actually has an excuse because back then, the Tremere were ONLY a bunch of Caitiff diablerists.

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