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All the clans have committed heinous acts, yet the tremere are the most hated

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  • All the clans have committed heinous acts, yet the tremere are the most hated

    It doesn't make sense to me at all, how come the tremere are hated more than practically every other clan. Sure they did some pretty messed up stuff, but the other clans like the tzimisce have done a lot worse, and were pretty open about it too.

    How did the other clans even figure out the gargoyles were former noseferatu, gangrel, and tzimisce? Like, wasn't their appearance completely changed, and weren't their memories wiped? There's no way they could have found out, unless the tremere told the other clans that they kidnapped vampires from different clans to make gargoyles.

    I know the tzimisce had their pride hurt over having the members of their clan kidnapped, and see the curse as something sacred. But why would the gangrel care? Better yet how would they even know? Gangrel sires regularly leave their childer alone for a number of years as a test to see whether or not they can survive on their own. There is no way they could have found out that they were kidnapped. Same with the nosferatu, the tremere have auspex so there's no way they could have trailed them without getting caught, plus if some animal started stalking you, a vampire, you would realize pretty quick that that's no regular animal. Since animals hate vampires and all that.

    Not many vampires cared about the salubri either, while few did try to protect them, a majority could care less if they went extinct.

    If anything clans like the venture should be hated because they are known for taking over empires and using them to wipe out their enemies.

    Plus most vampires hate each other, no one would care if a rival in their territory suddenly died, clanmate or not.
    Last edited by Hello; 03-24-2022, 02:25 PM.

  • Father Enoch
    replied
    Apologies if I'm just repeating something that's been said a million times, but my impression is that the Tremere are not so much hated as they are feared.

    They did something that should not have been able to be done. They "stole" vampirism, from a bloody Antediluvian. And they still have access to some form of sorcery, even if they lost their Hermetic arts. No one in V:tM necessarily "likes" each other (generalization) but Tremere have literally done (or at least appeared to have done) something only the Giovanni has accomplished. And the Giovanni had to be a lot sneakier about it.

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  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    My joking aside, a couple of points.

    First, vampires are a race of sociopathic tetchy cannibals. They do not need a reason to hate each other. Hate is their default state.

    Second, I suspect the "hate" for the Tremere is something the clan founders passed down through mental powers and through the blood. The surviving and involved clan founders of the Lasombra, Tzimisce, Toreador, Gangrel, Malkavian, Nosferatu and Banu Haqim were all involved in the jyhad. They knew something was going on with Saulot, and then Tremere and Tzimisce but they didn't know what for the most part. They could not or would not act directly against the Tremere as a group of vampires, but they did send out bad vibes.

    I am excluding the Cappadocians (and Giovanni) from this because the Cappadocian founder was a nutter and Giovanni were not really a thing yet. The founders of the Ventrue, Brujah, and Ravnos were also uninvolved.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Gothik_Knight View Post
    I actually think the Ventrue and Toreador rather like the Tremere. The Ventrue have always come out on top in their conflicts against everyone else (as far as they're concerned) and the Toreador simply don't conflict unless they want some amusement. In other words, neither clan feels like it really has anything to fear from the Tremere. On the other hand, the Tremere are naturally well behaved and have always sought out ways to be useful to the Camarilla. I don't think the powers that be care as much about sorcery as they care about the Tremere being adept at conspiracy and naturally graced with subtlety and competence.

    It's also interesting to note that, if the Tremere were "saved" by the inquisition, the anarch revolt and the founding of the Camarilla.. well.. the inquisition was started by the Toreador, the Ventrue were responsible for the Anarch revolt (as they were leading the elder faction) and the Toreador and Ventrue created the idea of the Camarilla. Looks to me like the three clans are thick as thieves.

    But also keep in mind that the Tremere, like any decent cult, use conflicts with outsiders to increase their own influence over their members, so they're actually likely to play up even friendly rivalries in order to keep control within the clan.
    Transylvania Chronicles actually states the Tremere did a lot to cover up that the Inquisition was their fuckup. Goratrix bringing about the end of the Knights Templar to loot their goodies is apparently what clued the Catholic Church to not just the existence of vampires (they've known about them a long time) but just how many of them were inside their ranks, specifically the Lasombra, and triggered an interior purge that spread out.

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  • Gothik_Knight
    replied
    I actually think the Ventrue and Toreador rather like the Tremere. The Ventrue have always come out on top in their conflicts against everyone else (as far as they're concerned) and the Toreador simply don't conflict unless they want some amusement. In other words, neither clan feels like it really has anything to fear from the Tremere. On the other hand, the Tremere are naturally well behaved and have always sought out ways to be useful to the Camarilla. I don't think the powers that be care as much about sorcery as they care about the Tremere being adept at conspiracy and naturally graced with subtlety and competence.

    It's also interesting to note that, if the Tremere were "saved" by the inquisition, the anarch revolt and the founding of the Camarilla.. well.. the inquisition was started by the Toreador, the Ventrue were responsible for the Anarch revolt (as they were leading the elder faction) and the Toreador and Ventrue created the idea of the Camarilla. Looks to me like the three clans are thick as thieves.

    But also keep in mind that the Tremere, like any decent cult, use conflicts with outsiders to increase their own influence over their members, so they're actually likely to play up even friendly rivalries in order to keep control within the clan.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    I would also like to state that "hated" is also a word with some context.

    No one liked the Tremere in the Dark Ages. They were diablerists, upstarts, Caitiff, and a bunch of guys who came out of nowhere to kill the Salubri Clan. I don't think anyone liked the Salubri Clan for being a bunch of holier than thou vegans (for lack of a better comparison) but some rando strangling the hippie next door is something you notice. Especially if he moves into said hippie's apartment and wants to show up at the apartment house meetings.

    However, while everyone hated the Tremere, it should be noted that very few vampires were motivated to DO anything about them. The Tzimisce and Tremere fought with some allies of the former but for the most part, the Tremere are just something most vampires tut-tutted about. It's not THEIR problem that there's a bunch of crazy wizard diablerists on the loose as long as that's restricted to Transylvania.

    Usually when Tremere show up in OTHER places, they're given snubbings and talked trash about. The Prince let's them in because you don't want to piss off this mysterious group of warlocks but its not like they wanted to attend the castle parties anyway. The Tremere in the Dark Ages are doing their own weird things.

    Its only when the Camarilla is formed that they're now forced to let them in.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 03-27-2022, 02:24 AM.

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  • Bluecho
    replied
    Moving back around to the response of other Clans to the Tremere, "Cred" must be taken into consideration.

    If an existing Clan victimizes members of your Clan, it's like whatever. That's just the Jyhad. Only those close to the victim will care, the rest will at best add it to the mountain of reasons to hate their old enemy.

    If an upstart group, that aren't even "real vampires", victimize your Clanmates, and then get away with it? That's everyone's problem. That makes the CLAN look bad. That makes the Clan look weak.

    And like any street gang caring about its street cred, vampire Clans cannot stand being made to look weak. Both for pride reasons, and because it invites further attacks from other Clans. Half the Jyhad is built, not on actually being unassailable, but projecting enough strength that no one would risk testing it.

    Whether it's the Tzimisce having their blood stolen to create the Usurpers in the first place, or the Gangrel or Nosferatu having their members captured and twisted into mindless slave monstrosities, they could not abide such attacks. Not from a tiny, illegitimate bloodline, with pretensions of being a Clan, that (at the time) weren't even half a millennia old. They HAD to be opposed, and on a Clan-wide basis.

    It's the principle of the matter.
    Last edited by Bluecho; 03-27-2022, 01:42 AM.

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  • CajunKhan
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    The Giovanni leadership was destroyed by the SI and the Mausoleum, leading to the capture/death of Augustus Giovanni.

    But yes, the Tremere Chantry in Vienna was targeted specifically for the same reason that Wolverine or Worf is constantly getting their ass kicked or they want the big wrestler to get an epic win. The Chantry in Vienna was a symbol of Tremere arrogance and invincibility for multiple editions as well as the most recognizable vampire stronghold in existence. They wanted it destroyed to illustrate to the vampire players that the Second Inquisition could be taken seriously and was an existential threat to vampiredom.

    Instead, a lot of fans complained about how humans could NEVER beat the Tremere and it was ridiculous the Inquisition was any sort of threat whatsoever.
    Maybe in theory. In practice, destroying such iconic locations just makes the WOD less cool. Y'know, I play various Marvel and DC video games and one of the fangasm experiences I have in such games is visiting iconic locations like the Hall of Justice, the Legion of Doom, Stark Tower, the Fantastic Four's Baxter Building, the Batcave.

    And it's not like these locations being inviolate ever made the player characters feel invincible. No matter how tough the iconic locations were, when guys come after you with flamethrowers, the last thing you feel is invincible. You are not the Vienna Chantry. You are a player character who can get incinerated just by losing track of time.
    Last edited by CajunKhan; 03-26-2022, 11:35 PM.

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  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    When you are not around, the Tremere sneak into your house. Then they move all the furniture by a quart inch, rearrange all your comic books, dog-ear pages in books your would never dog-ear, touch your dice (that is all they do to the dice) and lick your food.

    And that is why smart people hate the Tremere,

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Thoth View Post
    But then 5th rolls around and it is decided the SI ignores the entire Giovanni clan despite it having an HQ and being heavily involved with organized crime, they ignore all the hundreds or possibly thousands of brujah being uppity across the globe, they ignore Tzimisce and their flesh crafted monstrosities, and instead cruise missile the Tremere HQ..... when the Tremere had a ritual for several editions that causes all records of a haven/chantry to automatically self corrupt, self delete, or get misplaced.

    Excuse me, waiter, yes I would like to send this retcon ravioli back for something better please.
    The Giovanni leadership was destroyed by the SI and the Mausoleum, leading to the capture/death of Augustus Giovanni.

    But yes, the Tremere Chantry in Vienna was targeted specifically for the same reason that Wolverine or Worf is constantly getting their ass kicked or they want the big wrestler to get an epic win. The Chantry in Vienna was a symbol of Tremere arrogance and invincibility for multiple editions as well as the most recognizable vampire stronghold in existence. They wanted it destroyed to illustrate to the vampire players that the Second Inquisition could be taken seriously and was an existential threat to vampiredom.

    Instead, a lot of fans complained about how humans could NEVER beat the Tremere and it was ridiculous the Inquisition was any sort of threat whatsoever.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 03-26-2022, 10:29 PM.

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  • Thoth
    replied
    Originally posted by Hello View Post
    Im pretty sure what Thoth meant was that the writers messed with the tremere by making them the weakest clan in V5. I could be wrong though.
    Pretty much, though there is another aspect to it that just confuses the heck out of me.

    The Tremere clan were always portrayed as less numerous than the other main line clans. This makes sense since they tend recruit with an eye for the mystical and hunt down rogue embraces and traitors. Add on top of this the blood binding to the council and the fact that Dominate is a clan discipline and you would have a very tight knit lock step clan. The result being that the Tremere don't step out of line or out on their own much. If anything they like to hide in their chantries and stay out of the way. In other words they stay out of the limelight.

    But then 5th rolls around and it is decided the SI ignores the entire Giovanni clan despite it having an HQ and being heavily involved with organized crime, they ignore all the hundreds or possibly thousands of brujah being uppity across the globe, they ignore Tzimisce and their flesh crafted monstrosities, and instead cruise missile the Tremere HQ..... when the Tremere had a ritual for several editions that causes all records of a haven/chantry to automatically self corrupt, self delete, or get misplaced.

    Excuse me, waiter, yes I would like to send this retcon ravioli back for something better please.

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  • Hello
    replied
    Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
    The Inner Council set them apart in organisation from most clans, but I don't see how a couple of new dissident factions makes them less interesting. Did they become less interesting when the Tremere Antitribu were introduced? Even if you can't stand House Carna as an idea, House Tremere is right there.

    They feel a lot more like a club than a mighty clan. House Carna would have worked great as a secret society within Clan tremere that focused on the study of pagan magic. Maybe instead of fracturing the tremere they should have introduced more secret societies within the clan. I feel it would add a good amount of flavor. Maybe have some of the societies within the tremere war with one another, like having the horned society (infernalists) go up against the Eye of the serpent (followers of set). And others form alliances because they are somewhat similar to one another, or because their specialized fields of study mesh well together, like the Rodolfo and Trismegistus.
    Last edited by Hello; 03-26-2022, 03:55 PM.

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  • Spencer from The Hills
    replied
    The Inner Council set them apart in organisation from most clans, but I don't see how a couple of new dissident factions makes them less interesting. Did they become less interesting when the Tremere Antitribu were introduced? Even if you can't stand House Carna as an idea, House Tremere is right there.
    Last edited by Spencer from The Hills; 03-26-2022, 12:59 PM.

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  • Sergeant Brother
    replied
    Yeah, I agree with Thoth, I’m a long time Tremere fan and I don’t like the V5 changes to the Clans. It’s not about reducing their relative power or influence, in fact I think that they went way overboard in previous editions with making the Tremere overly important, but I think that destroying the Inner Council and fracturing the Clan removed much of what made the Clan interesting and gave them a really ham-fisted “take that”

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  • Hello
    replied
    Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

    They lost their headquarters, leading council and ability to blood bond, then a lot of them ditched their organisations. The only metaplot they're leading now is their own. There's no evidence to speak of that makes them responsible for the Second Inquisition, the Beckoning, the Sabbat's rapture, the Anarch uprising or the entry of the Banu Haqim and Lasombra into the Camarilla.
    Im pretty sure what Thoth meant was that the writers messed with the tremere by making them the weakest clan in V5. I could be wrong though.
    Last edited by Hello; 03-26-2022, 01:01 PM.

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