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The Wan Kuei retcon **Be extra respectful**

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  • #61
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    The Kuei Jin can work with any faction....except Cainites.


    Officially (though not even necessarily then as we have examples like the Nagaraja who were welcomed to the Green Courts or Oliver Thrace or the Giovanni or the Wu Zao). But unofficially you see vampires and wan kuei hanging out together in some areas. I recall one of the books even noting that there was some overlap between certain groups (like Devil Tigers, who want to become demons and kill the Yama Kings and the Sabbat, who want to stop being humans and kill the Antediluvians).

    Had the setting metaplot continued, in the aftermath of the Week of Nightmares, it would have been fairly easy to imagine factions of the Devil Tigers working together with factions of the Sabbat, especially if one of the Yama Kings could have been tagged as a possible Antediluvian.

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    • #62
      I know this thread isn't about the week of nightmares but what's the story on that now the kuei-jin have been retconned, because as far I'm aware the week of nightmares still happened.
      Last edited by The smiling gun-knight; 04-09-2022, 10:09 AM.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by The smiling gun-knight View Post
        I know this thread isn't about the week of nightmares but what's the story on that now the kuei-jin have been retconned, because as far I'm aware the week of nightmares still happened.
        Erasing the Wan Kuei does a number on the history of the Anarch Free States as well.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by The smiling gun-knight View Post
          I know this thread isn't about the week of nightmares but what's the story on that now the kuei-jin have been retconned, because as far I'm aware the week of nightmares still happened.
          It's absolutely part of V5 history. It's why Ravnos are rare and detached from any particular culture (and possibly more common in the Sabbat). Wan Kuei are a footnote in the history of the Anarch Free States, but not the history of kindred in east Asia. But then V5 hasn't said as much about the history of kindred east Asia.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post


            Officially (though not even necessarily then as we have examples like the Nagaraja who were welcomed to the Green Courts or Oliver Thrace or the Giovanni or the Wu Zao). But unofficially you see vampires and wan kuei hanging out together in some areas. I recall one of the books even noting that there was some overlap between certain groups (like Devil Tigers, who want to become demons and kill the Yama Kings and the Sabbat, who want to stop being humans and kill the Antediluvians).

            Had the setting metaplot continued, in the aftermath of the Week of Nightmares, it would have been fairly easy to imagine factions of the Devil Tigers working together with factions of the Sabbat, especially if one of the Yama Kings could have been tagged as a possible Antediluvian.
            They're also ignoring that part of the setting was the increasing nervousness of the elder Hungry Dead because the newer ones increasingly being angry and outspoken over the heavy handed dictates that they not interact or work with Cainites & that actions that were deliberately set up to fail like the Great Leap Outward were desperate pr campaigns by elder Gui Ren to try to essentially "look tough on crime." and prop up a status quo.

            Also, and this is not a reply to your comment but I maintain that simply replacing them with Kindred is a little lazy, a little racist and erases the positive appreciation of east Asian cinema like the golden era of Hong Kong action movies that very clearly was one of the major inspirations for the game.


            Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Reasor View Post
              Erasing the Wan Kuei does a number on the history of the Anarch Free States as well.
              I think if they ever do address it, it'll be Ming Xiao the Elder Tzimisce.

              Same with the week of nightmares.

              4 ancient Methuselahs (Salubri?) get up and try to kick Ravnos' ass.
              Last edited by CTPhipps; 04-09-2022, 11:55 AM.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                Like, the Nile or sub-Saharan Africa?
                There are still many questions about ancient civilizations in Africa, because of how little attention possible archaeological sites there received and because of some archaeologists in colonial times that literally destroyed evidence without analyzing it. While it isn't likely to cause extreme changes in our ancient history IRL, it's more than enough to justify some wild options in an RPG.

                Other than that, Kindred may have existed way before cities did. While that would mean a very different predator back then to adapt to a very different ecology, this is a fair assumption, and it would make a lot of sense for later vampires, as tied as they are to cities, to think Kindred origins must be tied to cities.

                Originally posted by The smiling gun-knight View Post
                and a changeling just being in the presence of a vampire is hazardous to their health which makes conversation a bit difficult.
                It must be said, among the "main/western" splats Changelings are by far the more likely to meaningfully interact with vampires and all the other splats. In fact, while the Mists make most splats have little to no understanding of Changelings, from CtD's perspective crossovers are reasonably common and easy to justify from a lore perspective. I see more resistance from players to be interested in being buddies with vampires or treating them as anything but a walking threat than are there real hard-coded justifications for this in the actual lore, especially because Changelings rarely avoid something just because it is dangerous.

                But that said, it certainly does not compare to how things work in KOTE, and for working WoD as a unified setting it is indeed far more interesting. So much so that I have a tendency to hugely play down the usual avoidance of splat interaction in my personal games.

                Originally posted by The smiling gun-knight View Post
                I know this thread isn't about the week of nightmares but what's the story on that now the kuei-jin have been retconned, because as far I'm aware the week of nightmares still happened.
                They don't talk about the Week of Nightmares, that's the current stance. They don't enforce, they don't deny, they don't talk about it.


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                • #68
                  "Most vampires have moderate Banality ratings, though Unseelie are often intoxicated by the dark auras of these fellow denizens of the night. Some Unseelie even claim that vampires do not exude Banality. Rather, they surround themselves with a sinister and exotic Glamour all their own."
                  According to C20, Vampiric banality is not innate (that's the Technocracy), it's the side effect of their immortality (aka, elders get jaded and depressed from existing in their shithole society for so long). The banality ratings of the sample characters is on par with the exaples for other splats (save Garou). The nobles do tell the commoners to shun vampires, while obsessing over their immortality anyway, which is known to lead to exchanges of services and pacts. The Kisayd, Tremere and Ravnos are on the strict no-contact list though, due to them being active threats of the murder or mad scientist experiment variety.

                  Vampire and Changeling interactions are on the table. They're not safe, but what interactions are?

                  Likewise, just because the Giovanni are largely assholes beyond compare does not make all Wraith-Vampire interactions hostile or abusive. There's even a merit for having a positive connection to one of the Restless. And speaking of the GIovanni, I think there was something in one of the clanbooks about a deal between the Family, the Order of Hermes and the Black Spiral Dancers (who find the Venetians delightful)

                  Cosmology wise, Kindred can gain access to the Underworld (which is apparently energising for them), fuck around with the Dreaming (chimestry) and I think access the Penumbra with Spirit Manipulation?

                  The Kindred aren't popular, but they are capable of interacting with the rest of the WoD... except maybe the Fera. It's there, just unexplored.
                  Last edited by Rhywbeth; 04-09-2022, 03:34 PM.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    4 ancient Methuselahs (Salubri?) get up and try to kick Ravnos' ass.
                    That could almost tie into the Salubri role in the 5th Sabbat.

                    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                    They don't talk about the Week of Nightmares, that's the current stance. They don't enforce, they don't deny, they don't talk about it.
                    Are we talking about V20? There's a loresheet in the V5 core book called "The Week of Nightmares".

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post

                      They're also ignoring that part of the setting was the increasing nervousness of the elder Hungry Dead because the newer ones increasingly being angry and outspoken over the heavy handed dictates that they not interact or work with Cainites & that actions that were deliberately set up to fail like the Great Leap Outward were desperate pr campaigns by elder Gui Ren to try to essentially "look tough on crime." and prop up a status quo.

                      Also, and this is not a reply to your comment but I maintain that simply replacing them with Kindred is a little lazy, a little racist and erases the positive appreciation of east Asian cinema like the golden era of Hong Kong action movies that very clearly was one of the major inspirations for the game.
                      Indeed. It's wasted potential and a potential means for fixing some of the problems with KotE.

                      It would have been very easy for the Wan Kuei to experience their own uphevals akin to their Western counterparts that led to structural changes within the line. Look at the clashes between the Cam and Anarchs that led to the two becoming completely separated and at odds with each other Or what happened to the Giovanni leading up to the Family Reunion and the Rebirth of the Hecata. And like you say, we know in-universe that similar tensions were going on within Wan Kuei society. The tension between the Young and Old, Ancient Traditions and New Ideas.

                      And for all the issues with the Great Leap Outward, it does also provide a means for the younger Wan Kuei to get out from under the control of their Elders as well as meeting with Hungry Dead of other foreign Courts and Cainites. It would be easy to have that lead to them realizing just how much their Elders are out of touch and lying to them. That neither Cainites nor the Wan Kuei of others nations are wicked and inferior as the Elders say, just different. More importantly, it plants the idea in their minds that it's time for a change in leadership. Not just in the Chinese Courts but across all the Courts.

                      And if one wanted to go the direction I've talked about before with making the Hungry Dead a global phenomenon, the younger Wan Kuei discovering that in their years away from the Asian Courts would also undermine their faith in their Elders and the longstanding Traditions of the Wan Kuei.

                      A bloody civil war later and swaths of the Wan Kuei Courts are now under the authority younger Wan Kuei and those Elders who realized the way the winds were blowing. More than that, they are building a Wan Kuei Sect in Asia and beyond, having recognized the threat and advantages of such organizations from the Cainites. Of course not everyone is onboard with that. Some of the younger Wan Kuei dissatisfied with the directions their revolt went and their new leadership have defected to the Anarchs while some of the Courts that successfully resisted the uprising have reached out to the Camarilla for aid.

                      And yes, the irony of that is not lost on them. Which only makes their hatred for their disobedient and treacherous younger kin greater.

                      But that's just some random thoughts off the top of my head.


                      Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
                        Are we talking about V20? There's a loresheet in the V5 core book called "The Week of Nightmares".
                        Except it isn't about the Week of Nightmares.

                        The loresheet in question conflates under the title "Week of Nightmares" the whole Time of Judgement™ metaplot, which includes a lot more things than just the actual WoN, that yes, was just a single week. It comments briefly on the overall developments, but does not goes on the details, it doesn't confirm or deny any of the many aspects of the WoN that are frequently discussed, like who were the parties present at the Battle of Bangladesh against Zapathasura, or how the Ante was defeated.

                        It confirms that the Week of Nightmares existed in some form and reiterates some of its effects, but for the most part it avoids talking about the actual WoN by being as vague as possible and conflating things so they can apply the effects and move on to less weird topics.

                        As far as I see it, this is pretty much making an effort to not talk about the Week of Nightmares, and it definitely covers the question asked (what they did about the Wan-Kuei present at the Week of Nightmares: they don't talk about it, period, so they don't have to do anything).


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                        • #72
                          That is another issue of incorporating the Wan Kuei. The Wan Kuei just flat out do not have the same problems other Kindred do so they're hard to incorporate into games.

                          ST: The Sabbat are planning to lay siege to Chicago.

                          Ventrue: I secure my haven.

                          Brujah: I want to protect my Mortal Touchstone and talk to the local Anarchs about forming a resistance.

                          Devil Tiger: Why should I care what happens to these foul creatures? I go hunt some demons! The Yama Kings are the true threat!


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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            ST: The Sabbat are planning to lay siege to Chicago.


                            My players-"we help by investigating which neonates hate their sires, and feel their humanity slipping away. We convert them to paths of enlightenment by preaching about the freedom of escaping the weight and misery of maintaining humanity, and the wonders of being in a pack where everyone is loyal to everyone else instead of being a slave to Cammy elders. We then use the information from these new recruits to capture Cammy Elder touchstones and fuse them into a vozhd."
                            Last edited by CajunKhan; 04-09-2022, 05:11 PM.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                              ST: The Sabbat are planning to lay siege to Chicago.

                              Ventrue: I secure my haven.

                              Brujah: I want to protect my Mortal Touchstone and talk to the local Anarchs about forming a resistance.

                              Devil Tiger: Why should I care what happens to these foul creatures? I go hunt some demons! The Yama Kings are the true threat!
                              I mean to misquote Guardians of the Galaxy:
                              Rocket: What has Chicago ever done for you? Why would you wanna save it? Peter Quill: Because I’m one of the idiots who lives in it!

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                                That is another issue of incorporating the Wan Kuei. The Wan Kuei just flat out do not have the same problems other Kindred do so they're hard to incorporate into games.

                                ST: The Sabbat are planning to lay siege to Chicago.

                                Ventrue: I secure my haven.

                                Brujah: I want to protect my Mortal Touchstone and talk to the local Anarchs about forming a resistance.

                                Devil Tiger: Why should I care what happens to these foul creatures? I go hunt some demons! The Yama Kings are the true threat!
                                Well there is the fact that presumably Chicago is where said Devil Tiger lives and wouldn't like it if some Sabbat rolled in and tried to take over. They may not like the local Cam and Anarchs but they likely know how to deal with them while the Sabbat are an outside aggressive force. It's not hard to see how a Wan Kuei would react when someone is trying to invade their city. Doubly so if they are living around a community they have connections to. And if the Devil-Tiger is still on the younger side, particularly their first century, they are unlikely to be that far into their Dharma as it's expected for Wan Kuei to be more... wild and human for the lack of better term during that time before they begin to truly engage in their Dharma. Their undead childhood as it were.

                                Further some Devil-Tigers don't just want to kill demons and spread sin. Some want to supplant the Yama Kings and take over their origin role as punishers of the wicked and sinful. More than that, that it is duty under Heaven to do so. And that label of wicked sinners is one that plenty of non-Sabbat would give the Sabbat. Hell, it wouldn't hard for Wan Kuei to see the Sabbat as the Cainite version of the Akuma. They're wrong of course as that would be the Baali and other Infernalists but it would still look that way to most Wan Kuei who would not know of the Baali and know only the basic things about the Sabbat.

                                Alternatively a Devil-Tiger could look at the activities of the Sabbat with disgust and contempt as one of the Devil-Tiger Tenants is:

                                Be cultured in your passions and magnificent in your evil. Any imbecile can act like a madman; it takes true wisdom to become a devil.
                                And in turn view the wickedness of the Sabbat as petty and imbecilic, viewing them as at best Western Akuma and at worst, fools playing at being a devil. So they decide that they are going to illuminate some 'lucky' Sabbat on what a true devil is.

                                Also just because the Wan Kuei have the Yama Kings has their Top Level Threat doesn't mean that they don't deal with other threats too. That would be like saying that Mages only fight the Technocracy or the Nephandi. Or that the Cam only fights the Sabbat. That Garou only fight the minions of the Wyrm. Just because a splat has a main enemy doesn't mean they deal with other foes and threats.

                                And that's not factoring in the other four Major Dharmas which all have at least one tenant that would advocate for fighting against a Sabbat invasion.

                                Frankly it's kind of laughable that one would assume that a Devil-Tiger would implicitly need a reason to engage in a foe when the rest of their coterie (which is what I'm assuming you were going with for that example) beyond backing up their coterie as they know that if they don't support their coterie when they need it, they're not likely to back him up when he needs it. Not counting any genuine bond he has with them.


                                Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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