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The Wan Kuei retcon **Be extra respectful**

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  • #76
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    That is another issue of incorporating the Wan Kuei. The Wan Kuei just flat out do not have the same problems other Kindred do so they're hard to incorporate into games.

    ST: The Sabbat are planning to lay siege to Chicago.

    Ventrue: I secure my haven.

    Brujah: I want to protect my Mortal Touchstone and talk to the local Anarchs about forming a resistance.

    Devil Tiger: Why should I care what happens to these foul creatures? I go hunt some demons! The Yama Kings are the true threat!
    Really? You have a choice of so many different splats in KotE and you use Devil Tigers as the ones who are so disdainful of Cainites and high-minded about their duties that they would ignore the opportunity to gain influence through a crisis? The ones that had a specific call-out in their splat book that judging and killing Cainites should be left to the Cranes? KotE may have had many warts, but the sorts of people who start walking that path are typically for more... complex and troubled than being single-minded and short-sighted about fighting overt servants of a corrupt hell.

    Also, you forgot to have a following dialogue box where the DT's Shadow (not really a po, let's be serious) chimes in.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

      Really? You have a choice of so many different splats in KotE and you use Devil Tigers as the ones who are so disdainful of Cainites and high-minded about their duties that they would ignore the opportunity to gain influence through a crisis? The ones that had a specific call-out in their splat book that judging and killing Cainites should be left to the Cranes? KotE may have had many warts, but the sorts of people who start walking that path are typically for more... complex and troubled than being single-minded and short-sighted about fighting overt servants of a corrupt hell.

      Also, you forgot to have a following dialogue box where the DT's Shadow (not really a po, let's be serious) chimes in.
      I used it as example of the fact that Kindred have mortal concerns like politics and territory for the most part while Wan Kuei have spiritual warfare that Cainites can't fight in.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #78
        The spiritual warfare of the Wan Kuei bleeds over into the physical world, in the same way the Werewolves' spiritual warfare against the Wyrm does. The Yama Kings frequently have minions and servants, both mundane and supernatural, in the physical world. The Wan Kuei also frequently engage in politics and battles for territory (using their "Scarlet Screens" in the process). A Devil Tiger PC allied with the Camarilla, who has her own powerbase set up in the mortal world, has as many reasons to help her Camarilla allies fight a Sabbat invasion as a Giovanni who's allied with the Camarilla.
        Last edited by AnubisXy; 04-09-2022, 11:10 PM.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          I used it as example of the fact that Kindred have mortal concerns like politics and territory for the most part while Wan Kuei have spiritual warfare that Cainites can't fight in.
          Young Hungry Dead are unlikely to be really concentrating on the spiritual part unless they're from a Dharma or have a personal inclination that strongly favors it, like the Bone Flowers in general or a Devil Tiger Black Axis Scholar aka a demonologist. However, a BAS also has an approach that involves occult science and lore collection, making them able to compete with/slide into spaces where the Tremere would normally be in Cam society, and would likely be interested in hanging around Kindred to capture and study the gnarly banes that swirl around them.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            I used it as example of the fact that Kindred have mortal concerns like politics and territory for the most part while Wan Kuei have spiritual warfare that Cainites can't fight in.
            That's not an actual distinction. The spiritual aspects affect and are affected by Earth, and while Vampire authors rarely delve into those aspects, the vampire characters that do demonstrate that they're perfectly capable of interpreting and incorporating this in their overall concerns. In fact, how many vampires that have no ability or knowledge of the Umbra don't still incorporate spiritual concerns in their lives to the point of killing and dying for those ideas?

            After all, this is the whole shtick of the Assamites, Salubri, Setites, Sabbat, most Path followers, the TBH, and part of the deal with any clan or bloodline with mystical Disciplines like the Tremere, Giovanni, Lhiannan and Kolduns, also heavily implied for any user of Auspex to reach level 5 despite no one ever bothering to finally explain how Astral Projection works in the setting.

            Wan-Kuei still live in the world and need to protect their interests, holdings and resources, Cainites still live in the world affected by the Umbra and can react to what they learn about what's going on there, and both are still people capable of establishing relationships and acting over those relationships.


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            • #81
              Seeing as KotE has just as much of the "vampire as organized crime." motif and cinematic aesthetic as VtM the idea that you can't do that sort of game because the Gui Ren is just off contemplating the nether realms is so out of touch with the setting as to border on strange parody. Relative to court, dharma and personal or collective prerogative, they have their fingers in the same sort of pies. Criminal enterprises, prostitution rings, legitimate fronts, temples, etc. Scarlet Screens are a thing, Shadow War and less formalized street wars are a thing etc.

              The spirit angle of that, both dealing with ghosts, spirits and the supernatural environment connected to that(the Beast Court, lightning people etc) is part of that, not some off screen exception. It's why you have things like when the local supernaturals have their Five Families style sit downs they're not so esoteric high philosophizing events. They're practical street level meetings where you don't sit the Devil Tigers and the Shadow lords near each other.
              Last edited by TyrannicalRabbit; 04-11-2022, 11:32 AM.


              Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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              • #82
                I'd imagine that the Shadow Lords would probably be the least troublesome ones out of the Ferocious People to seat next to the Devil Tigers.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                  I'd imagine that the Shadow Lords would probably be the least troublesome ones out of the Ferocious People to seat next to the Devil Tigers.
                  It's a reference to something in one of the books but thank you for the input.


                  Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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                  • #84
                    Yeah the idea that the Wan Kuei are some enlightened naval-gazers that don't concern themselves with such mundane and worldly things is silly. As mentioned before, they have the Scarlet Screens. In fact, the book on Wan Kuei warfare has an entire chapter dedicated to it. And speaking of that book, it has two chapters on the formal warfare the Wan Kuei wage largely against each other, one of which being a non-lethal war of intrigue and other being a lethal war to settle honor and blood feuds. And in the case of the latter, it was originally meant to be used just against Akuma. So yeah, anyone who thinks that the Wan Kuei don't get involved in mundane, petty shit that Cainites do, doesn't really know much about the Wan Kuei.

                    For all their declarations that they are more enlightened than their Western counterparts they're not really all that more enlightened. Their Courts are just as filled with factionalism, intrigue and in-fighting as the Cainite Courts. The young Wan Kuei fight with the old. They actively manipulate and meddle with mortals and mortal organizations.

                    And the Rulebook itself points out several times that for all their seeking of enlightenment and penance for their sins, at the end of the day Wan Kuei are still undead monsters. And that the Dharmas don't necessary cause them to transcend that but rather refine it into a more perfect form.


                    Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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                    • #85
                      My take on KotE has been for a while that it’s got plenty of interesting conceptual nuggets (like most WoD games do imo) but it would work best as it’s own standalone game line and one with a global scope like every game line should have.

                      How I usually handle this in my games is that the splats are global. There are kindred vampires in East Asia and there always has been and the only differences they have are the ones which would naturally occur from divergent cultural evolutions and maybe some unique bloodlines and forms of blood sorcery.

                      I do think though that the core premise of KoE (as I see it) is strong enough to support a game line of its own. I usually dub it something alone the lines of ‘Hellspawn the Returned’. The idea of playing a person who was so awful in life that upon death a part of their soul was actually drawn into Hell and was tormented by evil spirits, only to get the chance to escape and reanimate as one of the hungry dead. Then you have the returned trying desperately to avoid returning to Hell while also balancing their spiritual hunger with the needs to order themselves and seek redemption lest they become true demons in their own right.

                      You’ve got similar themes to vampire with the hunger, undeath, and the struggle with redemption & damnation but I do think that it’s got enough different resonances and room for spiritual involvement and philosophical debate over the nature of good and evil to stand on its own.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
                        I do think though that the core premise of KoE (as I see it) is strong enough to support a game line of its own. I usually dub it something alone the lines of ‘Hellspawn the Returned’. The idea of playing a person who was so awful in life that upon death a part of their soul was actually drawn into Hell and was tormented by evil spirits, only to get the chance to escape and reanimate as one of the hungry dead. Then you have the returned trying desperately to avoid returning to Hell while also balancing their spiritual hunger with the needs to order themselves and seek redemption lest they become true demons in their own right.

                        You’ve got similar themes to vampire with the hunger, undeath, and the struggle with redemption & damnation but I do think that it’s got enough different resonances and room for spiritual involvement and philosophical debate over the nature of good and evil to stand on its own.
                        That could share concepts with Geist: The Sin Eaters and Changeling: The Lost. If Hell can mean Yomi, Christian Hell and so on, the game could come in a lot of flavours. Ideally, that would be accomplished without racial hells. Maybe Hellspawn don't really remember Hell, because of the unfathomable trauma or part of the escape process or some, so they interpret it based on worldly images of Hell. And they shouldn't actually be called "Hellspawn". That sounds like natives of Hell, not people who went there after they died.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
                          My take on KotE has been for a while that it’s got plenty of interesting conceptual nuggets (like most WoD games do imo) but it would work best as it’s own standalone game line and one with a global scope like every game line should have.

                          How I usually handle this in my games is that the splats are global. There are kindred vampires in East Asia and there always has been and the only differences they have are the ones which would naturally occur from divergent cultural evolutions and maybe some unique bloodlines and forms of blood sorcery.

                          I do think though that the core premise of KoE (as I see it) is strong enough to support a game line of its own. I usually dub it something alone the lines of ‘Hellspawn the Returned’. The idea of playing a person who was so awful in life that upon death a part of their soul was actually drawn into Hell and was tormented by evil spirits, only to get the chance to escape and reanimate as one of the hungry dead. Then you have the returned trying desperately to avoid returning to Hell while also balancing their spiritual hunger with the needs to order themselves and seek redemption lest they become true demons in their own right.

                          You’ve got similar themes to vampire with the hunger, undeath, and the struggle with redemption & damnation but I do think that it’s got enough different resonances and room for spiritual involvement and philosophical debate over the nature of good and evil to stand on its own.
                          Well that probably wouldn't work all that well with the Wan Kuei as presented as the reasons why one ends up in the Thousand Hells are more varied and complex than the person was bad person. In fact multiple NPCs and sample characters in the books don't really have major sins or wrongs they've committed. For example the Thrashing Dragon Signature Character (to my knowledge she doesn't have a name) we get her backstory at the start of the TD DB and basically her sins were that she didn't live her life to the fullest (which is a common reason for plenty of future Dragons to end up in the Hells) and that at her lowest moment she killed herself. Not a particularly sinful or evil person. And some would argue given what she's gained since her Second Breath that it's more blessing than a curse.

                          So it's not necessarily bad people going to Hell and coming back.


                          Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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                          • #88
                            That’s fair, something more akin to the incomplete or unresolved vibes that Mummy (Arisen) and Wraith have might click a bit better there.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
                              That’s fair, something more akin to the incomplete or unresolved vibes that Mummy (Arisen) and Wraith have might click a bit better there.
                              One possibility that gets around the idea of morality and belief systems is there's something fundamentally screwed up about Hell in the WOD.

                              Demons stealing souls that they're not supposed to have.

                              Sort of like Changeling: The Lost only demonic.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                              Forum Terms of Use
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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                One possibility that gets around the idea of morality and belief systems is there's something fundamentally screwed up about Hell in the WOD.

                                Demons stealing souls that they're not supposed to have.

                                Sort of like Changeling: The Lost only demonic.
                                Which would be in line with the Yama Kings in general given their... well everything. After all, originally the Thousand Hells were less Hell and more a means of purging sin and such from souls before reincarnation. So the notion that souls end up there for all manner of reasons beyond just typical evil/sin wouldn't be out of place with established lore. The Yama Kings rejecting such duties in favor of their own greed and ambitions and turning their domains into hellish perversions we know them as while said domains still drawing in souls as they did before.


                                Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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