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  • #16
    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    Beliefs, Convictions & Touchstones

    Beliefs:
    Core convictions have been derived from the following beliefs:
    1.Pain is weakness leaving the body.
    2.Metamorphosis is sacred.
    3.Conquer yourself and you can conquer the world.

    Notes:
    The number represents which conviction it's linked to

    Convictions:
    1. Keep pushing forward despite hardships
    2. Keep perfecting yourself
    3. Keep reflecting on own actions

    Note: To me, the above corresponds somewhat to Nature: Autocrat and Demeanor: Visionary in V20/VtM:2nd, but not stereotypically.

    Touchstones: Trying to tie these to a specific numbered conviction.
    1.
    Mortal fellow colleague who despite a lot struggles, both internal and external, not always succeeding, but still keeps pushing forward

    2. This one I'm not really sure on what should be - any suggestions?

    3.
    Mortal patient, whom was scarred for life in a reconstructive surgery operation that went extremely bad, the failure felt surreal, as if some one had been puppeteering the whole thing.This touchstone is tied to Background: Enemy 1, the actual enemy in question could be the patient or for instance a relative.
    You don't need three convictions btw. Don't have any ideas for that second one either.

    Also, it's easier to come up with conviction with the Tenets in place, as they kind of work in conjunction, since Convictions serve to mitigate stains from breaking tenets.

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    • #17
      I think your listed beliefs are more flavoursome (and have more leeway for interpretation) than the listed Convictions. I would just use those as your Convictions, personally, but I like a bit of poetry.

      Failing that, you could just borrow from the Path of Metamorphosis Ethics: https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Path_of_Metamorphosis (you can't take all of them, but can take three).

      You seem to have some good dice pools there, too. Nothing too weak in the areas you want to be good at.


      Writer, publisher, performer
      Mostly he/his, sometimes she/her IRL https://adam-lowe.com

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      • #18
        Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
        I think your listed beliefs are more flavoursome (and have more leeway for interpretation) than the listed Convictions. I would just use those as your Convictions, personally, but I like a bit of poetry.

        Failing that, you could just borrow from the Path of Metamorphosis Ethics: https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Path_of_Metamorphosis (you can't take all of them, but can take three).

        You seem to have some good dice pools there, too. Nothing too weak in the areas you want to be good at.
        I do agree, that the beliefs has more flavour, and also as you say has a lot more leeway for interpretation, especially "Metamorphosis is sacred.".

        I'm actually considering something like this:
        - True comprehension requires a broad range of experience, so keep experimenting.
        This follows one of the ethics of Metamorphosis and has a lot of leeway for interpretation as well, including not being confined nor limited to only Metamorphosis.

        I'm considering to change the first belief: "Pain is weakness leaving the body." that with the above.
        Because "Conquer yourself and you can conquer the world." can essentially also include it, just a matter of interpretation.

        Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post

        You don't need three convictions btw. Don't have any ideas for that second one either.

        Also, it's easier to come up with conviction with the Tenets in place, as they kind of work in conjunction, since Convictions serve to mitigate stains from breaking tenets.
        Of course, three aren't needed, but it's definitely better to start with 3 convictions, because as far as I understand, each conviction is tied to a touchstone, so obviously starting with 3 as opposed to 2, is better. I don't know if it's possible to actually through game play adding more convictions, especially since they're tied to a touchstone?

        With regards to the Bane: Grounded - If it's Metamorphosis, how exactly would that come into play, as per the rules it says it has to be clearly defined and limited - but it doesn't say it has to be tangible, and Metamorphosis is a philosophy, concept or religion, but it also says that the character would need to be surrounded with while daysleeping. I feel it would fit the character as a religion or possibly a philosophy, but how can that be confined, limited and something that can surround the character without being tangible?

        I wonder, if I was going down the path of it being a religion, I think this might make a lot of sense:
        - The character needs to be surrounded by the holy/sacred (Metamorphosis) when daysleeping.
        This I would interpret as the character would have to be surrounded by anything that is considered holy/sacred to Metamorphosis - (Change/Transformation) which also means anything that represents this, it could be tangible but also intangible, it can be metaphysical as well. It could even be beings, whether living or unliving. Or perhaps even the character itself, though that may be a bit of a stretch. For instance, a journal that contains notes about the character's metamorphosis journey, would be considered holy/sacred - this is a physical/tangible thing, but for instance the cult is more metaphysical, as it is what it stands for, but it just as well be physical as it could also be tied to the actual location of where the cult is located (even if the location isn't fixed). This could possibly also be tied to actual followers the religion in the area (domain). Would this be a correct assesment?

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        • #19
          As for the Bane, I would be tempted to go for the traditional thing of 'native soil' precisely to contrast their Metamorphosist inclinations. The native soil is the thing that grounds them despite their ongoing transformation. And that kind of conflict between needing to be grounded and wanting to change could create lots of interesting plots for you and the ST.

          Failing that, a more literal interpretation of a philosophy would be the trappings of that philosophy -- so maybe he sleeps among his surgery tools, or in his lab, or among sacred texts on the subject of Metamorphosis.

          In play, the Bane has to be able to impact you negatively if things go wrong, so if it's too intangible and can be handwaved away ('He's sleeping in his beliefs, dude!') then it's not really in the spirit of Banes. So I think even an intangible concept needs to have some concrete metaphor. The example from the book, I think, is a Tzimisce sleeping in the apartment building he owns so he's literally surrounded by the people he owns. That example is instructive.


          Writer, publisher, performer
          Mostly he/his, sometimes she/her IRL https://adam-lowe.com

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Incarnate View Post

            I do agree, that the beliefs has more flavour, and also as you say has a lot more leeway for interpretation, especially "Metamorphosis is sacred.".

            I'm actually considering something like this:
            - True comprehension requires a broad range of experience, so keep experimenting.
            This follows one of the ethics of Metamorphosis and has a lot of leeway for interpretation as well, including not being confined nor limited to only Metamorphosis.

            I'm considering to change the first belief: "Pain is weakness leaving the body." that with the above.
            Because "Conquer yourself and you can conquer the world." can essentially also include it, just a matter of interpretation.
            That is a great conviction.

            Of course, three aren't needed, but it's definitely better to start with 3 convictions, because as far as I understand, each conviction is tied to a touchstone, so obviously starting with 3 as opposed to 2, is better. I don't know if it's possible to actually through game play adding more convictions, especially since they're tied to a touchstone?
            You only get as much Touchstones as you have convictions, and you can get more during play if you want.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
              Failing that, a more literal interpretation of a philosophy would be the trappings of that philosophy -- so maybe he sleeps among his surgery tools, or in his lab, or among sacred texts on the subject of Metamorphosis.
              I think this could be considered to follow along the lines of the their original clan curse, just a different label.
              Any kind of item, like surgery tools, books, the equivalent of soil, as soil is movable, and if memory serves me right, the game mechanical and narrative requirements was to be surrounded during daysleep with at least two handfuls of the native soil. Furthermore, the location lab is also the equivalent of 'native soil' in the regard of being a domain/haven.

              Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
              In play, the Bane has to be able to impact you negatively if things go wrong, so if it's too intangible and can be handwaved away ('He's sleeping in his beliefs, dude!') then it's not really in the spirit of Banes. So I think even an intangible concept needs to have some concrete metaphor. The example from the book, I think, is a Tzimisce sleeping in the apartment building he owns so he's literally surrounded by the people he owns. That example is instructive.
              How is this?

              Bane (Grounded):
              The character needs to be surrounded by the holy or sacred (Metamorphosis) when daysleeping - In particular for this character, it means to sleep among the trappings of the Religion: Metamorphosis, this would be sacred locations tied to Metamorphosis such as surgery rooms and laboratories, sacred texts and journals on the subject of Metamorphosis, tools of the "trade" pertaining to Metamorphosis such as surgery tools and implements, garments like a surgeons mask and apron, and other types of paraphernalia.

              In my opinion, I think it follows the same logic as the original clan curse, it's just different narrative labels, the native part is the equivalent of objects and locations has to be tied to Metamorphosis, the same way the native soil is tied to it's native homeland. So sure, this would also mean that the kindred could sleep in the surgery room of a hospital, but this would extremely risky and if discovered it would not be without consequence by the Camarilla. Potentially other more grisly locations are also possible, but they all would pose serious risk as they're not in a safe environment as opposed to the character's Haven, ie. the negative consequences.

              Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
              That is a great conviction.
              Good to hear you think so, I'm also going to be using it.

              Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
              You only get as much Touchstones as you have convictions, and you can get more during play if you want.
              So if I want to have three convictions at the beginning of play, I would need tree touchstones.

              I wonder what kind of Touchstone could be tied to Metamorphosís.
              Perhaps a previous Metamorphosis test subject or one that keeps undergoing plastic surgery to transform itself? If the former, then I could just reuse one of the touchstones I already have come up with and make a different one that fits better. Like for instance a scientist that studies and conducts experiments somehow relating to metamorphosis? I was thinking down the lines of a scientist who specializes in insect metamorphosis, both to represent the experimentation aspect but also the inhuman aspect of Metamorphosis.
              Last edited by Incarnate; 04-06-2022, 04:00 PM. Reason: Added more text.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
                I wonder what kind of Touchstone could be tied to Metamorphosís.
                Perhaps a previous Metamorphosis test subject or one that keeps undergoing plastic surgery to transform itself? If the former, then I could just reuse one of the touchstones I already have come up with and make a different one that fits better. Like for instance a scientist that studies and conducts experiments somehow relating to metamorphosis? I was thinking down the lines of a scientist who specializes in insect metamorphosis, both to represent the experimentation aspect but also the inhuman aspect of Metamorphosis.
                Any of those would work well really

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post

                  Any of those would work well really
                  I ended up using the first one - the scarred patient, and also the scientist that I mentioned, which is as specialist in insect metamorphosis, this both represents it's significance to the character's religion metamorphosis, but is also symbolic with regards to the inhuman nature of insects and the religion: Metamorphosis.

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