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  • Incarnate
    started a topic V5 Character Advice/Help Needed.

    V5 Character Advice/Help Needed.

    Hi all.

    So I'm making a Tzimisce character who's going to be part of the Camarilla for this game. I'm not sure what would be the best character build for it, in terms of attributes, skills and so on, but I have already made some choices for it

    Current concept.
    The character is a Surgeon, and will for the most part be a social type character relying on manipulation and charisma through intimidation, subterfuge, insight and various knowledge. The character most likely will not have access to Vicissitude and Flesh crafting from the beginning as they're gonna be fledgeling characters. The character desires to be the best surgeon, and obviously will be taking a shortcut towards this through fleshcrating. The character is running a cult where main recruitment is medical students, preferably candidates for surgery specialization. It's Predator type is Osiris.

    Currently I'm aiming for the character having access to these discipline from the beginning;
    - Dominate
    - Protean
    - Presence
    Eventually get disciplines such as Obfuscate, Auspex and Chimerstry. At least that's the current idea that I'm working with, though I am open to suggestions.

    As for advantages and flaws I was thinking down the lines of Status 1, Haven 2, Resources 3, Haven upgrade: Surgery, since there is no benefit in taking flaws, I don't see how it would make sense to for instance to add any Haven flaws. From Osiris it gets, Herd 2 and fame 1.
    Flaw 2: Dark Secret (Cult). Due to Osiris I also have to add two dots between enemy and Mythic flaws, here Im thinking Folklore Bane: Silver or Perhaps a Folklore Block and enemy 1, or enemy 2. Though I'm unsure exactly how many dots enemy 2 is worth, as there is something in regards to them counting for two less in their effectiveness, so I'm unsure if that affects their worth in flaw points/dots.

    So what would you guys recommend for attributes, skills and others? I'm also open to suggestions with regards to concept and other choices.

    Thank you in advance.

    //Inc.

  • Incarnate
    replied
    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post

    Any of those would work well really
    I ended up using the first one - the scarred patient, and also the scientist that I mentioned, which is as specialist in insect metamorphosis, this both represents it's significance to the character's religion metamorphosis, but is also symbolic with regards to the inhuman nature of insects and the religion: Metamorphosis.

    Leave a comment:


  • SetiteFriend
    replied
    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    I wonder what kind of Touchstone could be tied to Metamorphosís.
    Perhaps a previous Metamorphosis test subject or one that keeps undergoing plastic surgery to transform itself? If the former, then I could just reuse one of the touchstones I already have come up with and make a different one that fits better. Like for instance a scientist that studies and conducts experiments somehow relating to metamorphosis? I was thinking down the lines of a scientist who specializes in insect metamorphosis, both to represent the experimentation aspect but also the inhuman aspect of Metamorphosis.
    Any of those would work well really

    Leave a comment:


  • Incarnate
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
    Failing that, a more literal interpretation of a philosophy would be the trappings of that philosophy -- so maybe he sleeps among his surgery tools, or in his lab, or among sacred texts on the subject of Metamorphosis.
    I think this could be considered to follow along the lines of the their original clan curse, just a different label.
    Any kind of item, like surgery tools, books, the equivalent of soil, as soil is movable, and if memory serves me right, the game mechanical and narrative requirements was to be surrounded during daysleep with at least two handfuls of the native soil. Furthermore, the location lab is also the equivalent of 'native soil' in the regard of being a domain/haven.

    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
    In play, the Bane has to be able to impact you negatively if things go wrong, so if it's too intangible and can be handwaved away ('He's sleeping in his beliefs, dude!') then it's not really in the spirit of Banes. So I think even an intangible concept needs to have some concrete metaphor. The example from the book, I think, is a Tzimisce sleeping in the apartment building he owns so he's literally surrounded by the people he owns. That example is instructive.
    How is this?

    Bane (Grounded):
    The character needs to be surrounded by the holy or sacred (Metamorphosis) when daysleeping - In particular for this character, it means to sleep among the trappings of the Religion: Metamorphosis, this would be sacred locations tied to Metamorphosis such as surgery rooms and laboratories, sacred texts and journals on the subject of Metamorphosis, tools of the "trade" pertaining to Metamorphosis such as surgery tools and implements, garments like a surgeons mask and apron, and other types of paraphernalia.

    In my opinion, I think it follows the same logic as the original clan curse, it's just different narrative labels, the native part is the equivalent of objects and locations has to be tied to Metamorphosis, the same way the native soil is tied to it's native homeland. So sure, this would also mean that the kindred could sleep in the surgery room of a hospital, but this would extremely risky and if discovered it would not be without consequence by the Camarilla. Potentially other more grisly locations are also possible, but they all would pose serious risk as they're not in a safe environment as opposed to the character's Haven, ie. the negative consequences.

    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
    That is a great conviction.
    Good to hear you think so, I'm also going to be using it.

    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
    You only get as much Touchstones as you have convictions, and you can get more during play if you want.
    So if I want to have three convictions at the beginning of play, I would need tree touchstones.

    I wonder what kind of Touchstone could be tied to Metamorphosís.
    Perhaps a previous Metamorphosis test subject or one that keeps undergoing plastic surgery to transform itself? If the former, then I could just reuse one of the touchstones I already have come up with and make a different one that fits better. Like for instance a scientist that studies and conducts experiments somehow relating to metamorphosis? I was thinking down the lines of a scientist who specializes in insect metamorphosis, both to represent the experimentation aspect but also the inhuman aspect of Metamorphosis.
    Last edited by Incarnate; 04-06-2022, 04:00 PM. Reason: Added more text.

    Leave a comment:


  • SetiteFriend
    replied
    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post

    I do agree, that the beliefs has more flavour, and also as you say has a lot more leeway for interpretation, especially "Metamorphosis is sacred.".

    I'm actually considering something like this:
    - True comprehension requires a broad range of experience, so keep experimenting.
    This follows one of the ethics of Metamorphosis and has a lot of leeway for interpretation as well, including not being confined nor limited to only Metamorphosis.

    I'm considering to change the first belief: "Pain is weakness leaving the body." that with the above.
    Because "Conquer yourself and you can conquer the world." can essentially also include it, just a matter of interpretation.
    That is a great conviction.

    Of course, three aren't needed, but it's definitely better to start with 3 convictions, because as far as I understand, each conviction is tied to a touchstone, so obviously starting with 3 as opposed to 2, is better. I don't know if it's possible to actually through game play adding more convictions, especially since they're tied to a touchstone?
    You only get as much Touchstones as you have convictions, and you can get more during play if you want.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    As for the Bane, I would be tempted to go for the traditional thing of 'native soil' precisely to contrast their Metamorphosist inclinations. The native soil is the thing that grounds them despite their ongoing transformation. And that kind of conflict between needing to be grounded and wanting to change could create lots of interesting plots for you and the ST.

    Failing that, a more literal interpretation of a philosophy would be the trappings of that philosophy -- so maybe he sleeps among his surgery tools, or in his lab, or among sacred texts on the subject of Metamorphosis.

    In play, the Bane has to be able to impact you negatively if things go wrong, so if it's too intangible and can be handwaved away ('He's sleeping in his beliefs, dude!') then it's not really in the spirit of Banes. So I think even an intangible concept needs to have some concrete metaphor. The example from the book, I think, is a Tzimisce sleeping in the apartment building he owns so he's literally surrounded by the people he owns. That example is instructive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Incarnate
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
    I think your listed beliefs are more flavoursome (and have more leeway for interpretation) than the listed Convictions. I would just use those as your Convictions, personally, but I like a bit of poetry.

    Failing that, you could just borrow from the Path of Metamorphosis Ethics: https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Path_of_Metamorphosis (you can't take all of them, but can take three).

    You seem to have some good dice pools there, too. Nothing too weak in the areas you want to be good at.
    I do agree, that the beliefs has more flavour, and also as you say has a lot more leeway for interpretation, especially "Metamorphosis is sacred.".

    I'm actually considering something like this:
    - True comprehension requires a broad range of experience, so keep experimenting.
    This follows one of the ethics of Metamorphosis and has a lot of leeway for interpretation as well, including not being confined nor limited to only Metamorphosis.

    I'm considering to change the first belief: "Pain is weakness leaving the body." that with the above.
    Because "Conquer yourself and you can conquer the world." can essentially also include it, just a matter of interpretation.

    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post

    You don't need three convictions btw. Don't have any ideas for that second one either.

    Also, it's easier to come up with conviction with the Tenets in place, as they kind of work in conjunction, since Convictions serve to mitigate stains from breaking tenets.
    Of course, three aren't needed, but it's definitely better to start with 3 convictions, because as far as I understand, each conviction is tied to a touchstone, so obviously starting with 3 as opposed to 2, is better. I don't know if it's possible to actually through game play adding more convictions, especially since they're tied to a touchstone?

    With regards to the Bane: Grounded - If it's Metamorphosis, how exactly would that come into play, as per the rules it says it has to be clearly defined and limited - but it doesn't say it has to be tangible, and Metamorphosis is a philosophy, concept or religion, but it also says that the character would need to be surrounded with while daysleeping. I feel it would fit the character as a religion or possibly a philosophy, but how can that be confined, limited and something that can surround the character without being tangible?

    I wonder, if I was going down the path of it being a religion, I think this might make a lot of sense:
    - The character needs to be surrounded by the holy/sacred (Metamorphosis) when daysleeping.
    This I would interpret as the character would have to be surrounded by anything that is considered holy/sacred to Metamorphosis - (Change/Transformation) which also means anything that represents this, it could be tangible but also intangible, it can be metaphysical as well. It could even be beings, whether living or unliving. Or perhaps even the character itself, though that may be a bit of a stretch. For instance, a journal that contains notes about the character's metamorphosis journey, would be considered holy/sacred - this is a physical/tangible thing, but for instance the cult is more metaphysical, as it is what it stands for, but it just as well be physical as it could also be tied to the actual location of where the cult is located (even if the location isn't fixed). This could possibly also be tied to actual followers the religion in the area (domain). Would this be a correct assesment?

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  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    I think your listed beliefs are more flavoursome (and have more leeway for interpretation) than the listed Convictions. I would just use those as your Convictions, personally, but I like a bit of poetry.

    Failing that, you could just borrow from the Path of Metamorphosis Ethics: https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Path_of_Metamorphosis (you can't take all of them, but can take three).

    You seem to have some good dice pools there, too. Nothing too weak in the areas you want to be good at.

    Leave a comment:


  • SetiteFriend
    replied
    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    Beliefs, Convictions & Touchstones

    Beliefs:
    Core convictions have been derived from the following beliefs:
    1.Pain is weakness leaving the body.
    2.Metamorphosis is sacred.
    3.Conquer yourself and you can conquer the world.

    Notes:
    The number represents which conviction it's linked to

    Convictions:
    1. Keep pushing forward despite hardships
    2. Keep perfecting yourself
    3. Keep reflecting on own actions

    Note: To me, the above corresponds somewhat to Nature: Autocrat and Demeanor: Visionary in V20/VtM:2nd, but not stereotypically.

    Touchstones: Trying to tie these to a specific numbered conviction.
    1.
    Mortal fellow colleague who despite a lot struggles, both internal and external, not always succeeding, but still keeps pushing forward

    2. This one I'm not really sure on what should be - any suggestions?

    3.
    Mortal patient, whom was scarred for life in a reconstructive surgery operation that went extremely bad, the failure felt surreal, as if some one had been puppeteering the whole thing.This touchstone is tied to Background: Enemy 1, the actual enemy in question could be the patient or for instance a relative.
    You don't need three convictions btw. Don't have any ideas for that second one either.

    Also, it's easier to come up with conviction with the Tenets in place, as they kind of work in conjunction, since Convictions serve to mitigate stains from breaking tenets.

    Leave a comment:


  • Incarnate
    replied
    Originally posted by Vilenecromancer View Post

    NVM you right. Honestly. any specialty that tells the ST, this is for vicissitude.
    No worries, it's all good.
    It's better to point something out, even if you may be wrong, as you could've been right, especially when considering that in V5, that crafting roll is mainly used when doing something that changes the Appearance, but there are other types of changes where it could be required. In V5 Vicissitude is mainly a Resolve + Protean roll, so both are important, but the character doesn't have enough points or xp (none given as it's a fledgeling character) to raise both to at least a 4. Though character can't even use the Vicissitude power yet, as it hasn't unlocked it yet.

    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
    Firearms is mostly Composure, Dex is used for quick draws (cowboy high noon stuff) and Resolve for Sniping.
    Ah, got it. That makes good sense. Composure isn't exactly the strong suit of the character, and the dex is needed for the various things, but most the Vicissitude crafting check.

    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
    Those that I highlighted are the most easily made into convictions. I'd think of what actions would be supporting those convictions, and what would be going against it.
    I rewroteKnow the enemy and know yourself -- Conquer yourself and you can conquer the world.

    Would convictions like these makes sense based on those you highlighted.
    - Keep pushing forward despite hardships [Pain is weakness leaving the body]
    - Keep perfecting yourself [Metamorphosis is sacred] -
    - Keep reflecting on own actions - [Conquer yourself and you can conquer the world] - Conquer and control would be synonymous with each other

    I don't know if those actions would fit those beliefs, to me they do.
    Though I wanted something a bit more towards that autocratic and visionary nature I mentioned, but I supposed I might have struck home with that already with the two bottom convictions, while the first one really is the one that keeps the characters drive going.

    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
    As for the Clan Bane, perhaps you could do something with the Metamorphosis ?
    I was thinking down those lines too, but I'm not sure what the character would need to be surrounded with while daysleeping.
    As per the rules it says it has to be clearly defined and limited - but it doesn't say it has to be tangible, and Metamorphosis is a philosophy, concept or religion, I feel it would fit the character as a religion, but how can that be confined and limited?
    Beliefs, Convictions & Touchstones

    Beliefs:
    Core convictions have been derived from the following beliefs:
    1.Pain is weakness leaving the body.
    2.Metamorphosis is sacred.
    3.Conquer yourself and you can conquer the world.

    Notes:
    The number represents which conviction it's linked to

    Convictions:
    1. Keep pushing forward despite hardships
    2. Keep perfecting yourself
    3. Keep reflecting on own actions

    Note: To me, the above corresponds somewhat to Nature: Autocrat and Demeanor: Visionary in V20/VtM:2nd, but not stereotypically.

    Touchstones: Trying to tie these to a specific numbered conviction.
    1.
    Mortal fellow colleague who despite a lot struggles, both internal and external, not always succeeding, but still keeps pushing forward

    2. This one I'm not really sure on what should be - any suggestions?

    3.
    Mortal patient, whom was scarred for life in a reconstructive surgery operation that went extremely bad, the failure felt surreal, as if some one had been puppeteering the whole thing.This touchstone is tied to Background: Enemy 1, the actual enemy in question could be the patient or for instance a relative.
    Last edited by Incarnate; 04-04-2022, 07:40 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • SetiteFriend
    replied
    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    Ah, that makes sense. So dex isn't used in V5 as a primary combat attribute for firearms?

    If it's any help, I was thinking Nature and Demeanor being something like Autocrat and Visionary, but that's not a thing in V5.

    Hmm, the character believes:
    One is only limited by one's own imagination.
    Pain is only temporary, victory is eternal.
    Pain is weakness leaving the body.
    You're your own worst enemy
    None may control me, unless it serves my interests.
    Metamorphosis is sacred.
    Know the enemy and know yourself.

    ..basically just brainstorming.

    I was thinking for the Clan Bane to more a disembodied element, like a concept, something the character represents or something more esoteric in nature.
    Possibly what the cult represents?
    Firearms is mostly Composure, Dex is used for quick draws (cowboy high noon stuff) and Resolve for Sniping.

    Those that I highlighted are the most easily made into convictions. I'd think of what actions would be supporting those convictions, and what would be going against it.

    As for the Clan Bane, perhaps you could do something with the Metamorphosis ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Vilenecromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    That is actually not entirely true, craft which is a skill and is used in specific Vicissitude rolls, mind you failed rolls means losing the attribute dot and decreases the looks merit.
    So obviously, I want to have the craft skill to be specialized, so the body crafts was just to emphasize on this, in V20 and 2nd revised ed. it was Fleshcraft and Bonecraft, and Body craft seems to fit those nicely, and the character has Medicine (Surgery), so it's fitting it has body crafts. But what would you say would be the correct specialty then for Craft if it's to work when using Vicissitude.
    NVM you right. Honestly. any specialty that tells the ST, this is for vicissitude.

    Leave a comment:


  • Incarnate
    replied
    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post

    Knives, daggers and short swords are Dexterity + Melee. Strength is for Brawl and Heavy Melee, like Broadswords, Warhammers, Steel beams.

    As for Clan Bane, think about your haven and what he has there that is attached to. Maybe medical equipment?

    As for convictions, what does your character believe in strongly?
    Ah, that makes sense. So dex isn't used in V5 as a primary combat attribute for firearms?

    If it's any help, I was thinking Nature and Demeanor being something like Autocrat and Visionary, but that's not a thing in V5.

    Hmm, the character believes:
    One is only limited by one's own imagination.
    Pain is only temporary, victory is eternal.
    Pain is weakness leaving the body.
    You're your own worst enemy
    None may control me, unless it serves my interests.
    Metamorphosis is sacred.
    Know the enemy and know yourself.

    ..basically just brainstorming.

    I was thinking for the Clan Bane to more a disembodied element, like a concept, something the character represents or something more esoteric in nature.
    Possibly what the cult represents?


    Originally posted by Vilenecromancer View Post
    Body Crafts was a Medicine specialty, and even then this will not come up as disciplines do not use skills.
    That is actually not entirely true, craft which is a skill and is used in specific Vicissitude rolls, mind you failed rolls means losing the attribute dot and decreases the looks merit.
    So obviously, I want to have the craft skill to be specialized, so the body crafts was just to emphasize on this, in V20 and 2nd revised ed. it was Fleshcraft and Bonecraft, and Body craft seems to fit those nicely, and the character has Medicine (Surgery), so it's fitting it has body crafts. But what would you say would be the correct specialty then for Craft if it's to work when using Vicissitude.
    Last edited by Incarnate; 03-31-2022, 09:11 PM.

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  • Vilenecromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    Craft (Body Crafts): 2
    Body Crafts was a Medicine specialty, and even then this will not come up as disciplines do not use skills.

    Leave a comment:


  • SetiteFriend
    replied
    Originally posted by Incarnate View Post
    Aren't Melee strength in V5?
    The reason I had gone with firearms was due to the character not being a very tough character.

    Still needing touchstones and convictions, and what it's clan bane grounded is tied to, any suggestions? I'm kind of blank on those.
    Could do with some suggestions.
    Knives, daggers and short swords are Dexterity + Melee. Strength is for Brawl and Heavy Melee, like Broadswords, Warhammers, Steel beams.

    As for Clan Bane, think about your haven and what he has there that is attached to. Maybe medical equipment?

    As for convictions, what does your character believe in strongly?

    Leave a comment:

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