Lugoj Bloodbreaker's rebellion in 5e

[Jackob]

So, I am a Dark Ages player and haven't really read 5e until recently, where I started looking into it to see if it the rules could be used for Dark Ages.

One of the firs things I came across was that the Tzimisce now have Dominate and I was wondering how that would have affected the canon history of the Anarch Rebellion, specifically Lugoj the Bloodbreaker and whether or not this is adressed in the books.

The set-up prior to 5e was that the Tzimisce were masters of the Blood Bond, even having magical rituals that could modify the effect of said bond. This set up the clan elders' fall to the Anarchs when Lugoj and younger Kolduns used magic to create the Vaulderie, which broke the blood bonds that the elders used to keep the younger generations in line. With nothing else to control them with, the elders of Clan Tzimisce were doomed.

However, in 5e, with the Tzimisce having Dominate, they would rely far less on Blood Bonds, not have the same reason to develop magic that affects the Blood Bond, and wouldn't have been as overrun by the breaking of the Blood Bond offered by the Vaulderie.

[Hello]

Although I have never gotten the chance to play the game, I have read a lot of the books published for it.

IMO if the tzimisce had dominate as one of their in clan disciplines, the tzimisce would have been unable to join the revolt since dominate is a lot more practical and useful than a blood bond. Of course the tzimisce ante could have just overwritten the dominate commands of their elders with his own commands and force them to join the anarch revolt, because in vtm there always a man behind the man.

[Spencer from The Hills]

Dominate didn't stop the Lasombra. And Tzimisce still rely upon blood bonds; God knows Tremere used to and they had Dominate too. The Tzimisce guidance in V5 includes a Dominate power that specifically fortifies blood bonds, which the Vaulderie should nullify.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

The revolt by the Anarchs, at least where it led to the supposed destruction of Tzimisce and Lasombra, was a plot by those Antes as part of the jyhad. So with or without Dominate it still unfolds mostly as it did.

[Killtron]

Anyone can learn an out of clan disipline. Many tzimisce in older edition have learned dominate because it's very helpful. Koldonic sorcery is out of clan but many tzimisce have learned it. It pretty likely that they would have used a combination of bloodbonds, dominate and presence to retain control over younger vampires. Elder stat blocks usually have alot of disciplines that are out of clan and those are the guys that would have been in charge back then. I don't feel having dominate in clan would have changed that much in the setting since alot of the setting is quite vague and open to running whatever you want.

[Kharnov]

Dominate is best used like a scalpel, and more clumsily used like a hammer. It can give specific commands, or alter specific memories, but relying on it too much leads to you having to give out a grocery list of commands, with the constant concern that you have left some kind of loophole in there that can be exploited by someone who understandably resents having their mind twisted into servitude.

I think the function of the Blood Bond is probably a bit closer to Presence than Dominate in practice; it manipulates the feelings of the target without compelling obedience. You can expect certain outcomes based on the feelings produced, but you cannot be sure that they are going to behave exactly like you want them to. You could probably produce a similar outcome with Dominate if you were really willing to go to town on their memories, rewriting it so they believe they owe their life to you and the like, and that you've never treated them like crap, etc., but it's a lot of effort compared to instilling a powerful obsessive devotion in someone with just a few drops of blood. Point being, the Tzimisce being given Presence would come closer to stepping on the toes of their traditional focus on Blood Bonds than Dominate IMO.

[Reasor]

The revolt by the Anarchs, at least where it led to the supposed destruction of Tzimisce and Lasombra, was a plot by those Antes as part of the jyhad. So with or without Dominate it still unfolds mostly as it did.

This. Both Antedeluvians faked their destruction as a way of laying low and getting off their siblings' radar so they could pursue their respective apotheoses without distraction.

[Black Fox]

Anyone can learn an out of clan disipline.

Yep. And if you look at many canon NPCs in the By NIght books and elsewhere, their Disciplines are all over the place, and often do not reflect how a PC would develop them. The idea that an NPC's clan would determine what kind of Disciplines they would develop the most has never been reflected in the game itself, although it very often drives player behavior.

Retconning the in-clan Disciplines of a clan doesn't need to change the game's history at all.

[CTPhipps]

There's also the fact Dominate is a lot less effective against vampires in 5E and a lot MORE effective against mortals.

A vampire who tries to control his progeny through Dominate is pretty screwed as they'll always have the option to resist and spend willpower.

[CajunKhan]

Yep. And if you look at many canon NPCs in the By NIght books and elsewhere, their Disciplines are all over the place, and often do not reflect how a PC would develop them. The idea that an NPC's clan would determine what kind of Disciplines they would develop the most has never been reflected in the game itself, although it very often drives player behavior.

Retconning the in-clan Disciplines of a clan doesn't need to change the game's history at all.

Well if you want to be realistic, most vampires would try to fed on animals for a long time and focus on Animalism. Then they'd start on Presence and Dominate because those are the most easy-mode ways of getting human blood. So the actual way most players progress has little to do with realism.

[CTPhipps]

Well if you want to be realistic, most vampires would try to fed on animals for a long time and focus on Animalism. Then they'd start on Presence and Dominate because those are the most easy-mode ways of getting human blood. So the actual way most players progress has little to do with realism.

I think the most unrealistic thing would be expecting former humans to act rationally and sensibly.

[Reasor]

Retconning the in-clan Disciplines of a clan doesn't need to change the game's history at all.

And Tzimsisce can build for Vicissitude via amalgam powers, anyhow. This is honestly one of my favorite alterations that V5 delivers, consolidating the two Tzimisce bloodlines in a way that hearkens back to Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand's old canon about which was the clan specialty first, the hypnotism or the fleshcrafting.

[Gurkhal]

Just gonna throw in that, to me, giving the Tzimisce Dominate isn't a game breaker. But it does change them since the combination of their Dark Ages High Clan position together with a lack of a in-clan social Discipline meant together with their historical reserved attitude to other Clans, at least to me, that was the reason as to why they developed terror and fear and the blood bound to the degree they did in order to facilitate control and "leadership".

So I am personally torn in both directions and I'll have to see which direction I would go if I got in a situation where I had to make a choice and stick with it. Like a player wanting to play a Tzimisce with a solid concept beyond "Vicissitude for the win!"

[CTPhipps]

Just gonna throw in that, to me, giving the Tzimisce Dominate isn't a game breaker. But it does change them since the combination of their Dark Ages High Clan position together with a lack of a in-clan social Discipline meant together with their historical reserved attitude to other Clans, at least to me, that was the reason as to why they developed terror and fear and the blood bound to the degree they did in order to facilitate control and "leadership".

So I am personally torn in both directions and I'll have to see which direction I would go if I got in a situation where I had to make a choice and stick with it. Like a player wanting to play a Tzimisce with a solid concept beyond "Vicissitude for the win!"

I mean that's a perfectly plausible explanation but if you want people to be ruled by methods OTHER than terror and fear then you want PRESENCE not Dominate.

[Garygeneric]

I mean that's a perfectly plausible explanation but if you want people to be ruled by methods OTHER than terror and fear then you want PRESENCE not Dominate.

I would argue that Dominate is the opposite of ruling through fear. Dominate is a very subtle, low-masquerade thread because people don’t know it’s being used on them. Their mind shuts down to facilitate the puppetry you invoke.

Auspex is actually an amazing tool for ruling through fear. You can literally convict your subjects of thought crimes. To me, this is every bit as terrifying as the physical brutality of Vicissitude. You have nothing of your very own and even an intrusive thought can bring endless hell down on you, your family, your village, whatever the Lord of the Land deems fit.