How come none of the clans remember the Baali?

[Hello]

I can understand that many of the older vampires would keep this information secret among the younger ones because they don't want them to be tempted by the power that the Baali possessed. But there has to be many others who would want to pass on the knowledge they have on the baali so that others will be better equipped to face these monsters if they were to ever meet them. The Baali nearly destroyed the world, and were responsible for the infernal hellhole carthage had become. This is the type of information that should be impossible hide.

Surely the clans would remember the common foe that united many of them together? After all these weren't skirmishes or clan rivalries, it was a full on war. In fact there were two baali wars. Again let me remind all of you that the Baali nearly destroyed the world, and it took an army to stop them.

In all honesty, it surprises me that the Brujah that were around when Carthage was a thing, don't remember the one clan that ruined it all.

[Ragged Robin]

Vampires are by nature, creatures of secrecy so information is often lost. Simply because it's presumed to be need to know.
Frankly it wouldn't surprise me if the average neonate doesn't even know much about other clans.

[Alphari]

don't remember the one clan that ruined it all

Ventrue? My Sir hate them, all my clan hated them when Carthage was...
But seriously. Baali did not shout to the whole world that they were there. They did their work quietly. But someone knew something.

[Baaldam]

I can understand that many of the older vampires would keep this information secret among the younger ones because they don't want them to be tempted by the power that the Baali possessed. But there has to be many others who would want to pass on the knowledge they have on the baali so that others will be better equipped to face these monsters if they were to ever meet them. The Baali nearly destroyed the world, and were responsible for the infernal hellhole carthage had become. This is the type of information that should be impossible hide.

Surely the clans would remember the common foe that united many of them together? After all these weren't skirmishes or clan rivalries, it was a full on war. In fact there were two baali wars. Again let me remind all of you that the Baali nearly destroyed the world, and it took an army to stop them.

When and for how long is the key - pretensions of all parts notwithstanding, clan and sect unity and continuity are completely scattershot, full of glaring holes, contradictions, lies and misinformation.

Like the matter of Mithras - is he truly the childe of an antediluvian or just some methuselah of far less glorious origin with a penchant for diablerie, self-agrandizement and blatant lying, to the point of presenting some random mostly forgotten ancient as the founder of their whole line? Considering we are speaking of a vampire that has played the role of sun god for millenia, the second is just as possible, if not far more probable and fitting with his overall character and portrayal.

And if Mithras is a scammer, well, that would make a very large chunk of the Ventrue clan lore of dubious validity.

Not every character or branch of a clan has access to the same sources - and even when they do, different editions, witness and such can color and prioritize different parts of the facts.

It all depends on who passes the bits of info - who survived an era, who is just repeating stuff they heard from their elders or read about and so on.

In all honesty, it surprises me that the Brujah that were around when Carthage was a thing, don't remember the one clan that ruined it all.

Because they refuse to see any such corruption in the first place and point fingers to the roman Ventrue imperialism and propaganda as the true causes of Carthage's ultimate ruin, for starters?
Damn, the greater part of the kindred who know of Carthage as an openly kindred-dominated society don't even know of Baali presence and supposed degree of influence - and that includes some actual Brujah active at the time, like Critias and Menele. Not to mention that some pretty powerful Baali, according to their clanbook, were also part of roman society at the time and guess what, Rome still had a bunch of centuries to exist and even grow from Republic to Empire beside that.

Everything based on Clanbook Baali is unreliable due the book's blatant bias and borderline propaganda slant, right from the cover when it qualifies them as a clan, should be said. And that without going into the huge gaps of time between some of the major milestones in that book or others, that can sometimes fit some pretty huge "minor events" like Baal the Destroyer's [aka Ur-Shulgi, the OG satanist punk nights] leading the Baali into razing the Second City, an event that did not even exist, depending on what are your ideas of reliable sources as a Baali.

Dominoes, not a puzzle, is how the pieces fit - or not.

[Vilenecromancer]

Remember, the vampire population is 1 vampire to around every 100,000 people. Back during the Baali wars, that translates to less then an estimated 800 vampires total. That's like 61 vampires per clan if they were even distributed between the main 13. Problem is they weren't, Salubri and the Banu Haqim were relatively small compared to the other clans, and the Baali themselves were likely seen as a short of 14th clan at the time. Most vampires die quickly, so most of those won't last long.

Given all that information, and the likelihood that only a fraction of those kindred actually knew about the Baali, it's almost guarentee that these events would fall to legend or myth. Now take a group known for being secretive, like vampires, and suddenly that guarentee will surprisingly happen much faster.

TLDR, the vampire population is too low, and too secretive, to sustain a strong coherent history most of the time. You can even see this in lore, as most events are speculations, legends, or just straight up myths.

[Kharnov]

Other people have already hit on the fact that any given Vampire's knowledge of history is going to depend largely on what their sire and other Kindred are willing to pass on to them. There are very few concrete written records of Kindred history, because they are a potential Masquerade breach. Even before the Camarilla, that was something a lot were concerned about, and the Cam generally makes it their business to actively purge that sort of stuff with fire: IIRC they've torched most copies of the in-game Encyclopaedia Vampirica for precisely that reason.

The other thing to consider is that, for most of the elders that would hypothetically be passing that information on to their childer, the Baali are extinct, a non-issue in the Modern Nights. Historically-minded Kindred might pass that kind of lore onto their childer, but a lot of them are going to prioritize the stuff that is going to help their new baby vampire survive, and a depressing history lesson about a (supposedly) extinct threat just aren't going to see it as important compared to feeding safely and setting up a haven. And that doesn't even mention the Clans that will often abandon their childer and leave them to sink-or-swim without explaining *anything* like some Brujah or Gangrel.

[Haquim]

The premise of this thread is not correct. There are vampires that know about the Baali and there are even baali hunters among them. The Assamites certainly knew about the Baali. There are Brujahs that know about the Baali and there Ventrue that do as well. The knowledge is not widespread because of the nature of Vampire society but it is there

[CTPhipps]

I think it depends on the very ST-decided question of, "How much do vampires know about the setting?"

There's a very good argument the books actually assume the average Neonate doesn't even know what a SETITE is rather than the Baali. The way the books are presented, the basic knowlege of undeath is far-far more limited than we the players tend to assume.

I would argue that the majority of vampires know this:

* Who the Seven Clans are
* What the Camarilla is
* What the Anarchs are
* The Sabbat is some horrifying scary thing [and this only if you were Embraced before 2004)
* That werewolves exist

And very little else.

Literally, everything else is actually a function of the occult score. You'd need at least a one to know that there's 13 Clans, many vampires believe Caine created their race, and the concept of Gehenna.

[Bluecho]

I want to reiterate the point about Baali being assumed, even by most who know of them at all, as an extinct Bloodline. Sure, there are groups that are more knowledgeable of them, like the Salubri and Assamites. Those that know, for a fact, that the Baali still exist and are active in the world.

Most of the really old Elders/Methuselahs, though, who know of the Baali only have fading memories, because as far as they're aware, the Baali are a non-issue. Of as little relevance to modern Kindred as the Anda or Lhiannan. A few may survive to the modern nights, theoretically, but you don't hear anything about them, let alone meet one. So why bother dwelling on it, let alone passing it down to Childer?

That the Baali are active in modern nights is obfuscated by the Baali themselves, who have largely abandoned the mass embraces of slavering berserkers and the performing of huge rites, in favor of working from the shadows and only embracing scholarly, subtle progeny. It is precisely because they were so well known in nights long past that they keep a low profile. And it works for them.

Moreover, most Methuselahs who unlived during a time when Baali were really active - when they were engineering the deaths of cities and attempting to plunge the world into ruin - are either dead or in Torpor now. The ones active these nights are relatively young Methuselahs, barely 1,000 years old. This creates a gap between Old Lore and REALLY Old Lore. Many only know of Baali in passing, or as a weird one-off encounter back in the Dark Ages.

Also, I'd like to illustrate that many who do know the Baali are active may not know them as Baali. Vampires don't signpost their lineage, except in a few cases, and those looking to hide don't advertise. Even those who hunt Baali may not always be cognizant of the distinction between "Baali" and "Infernalist". Freely conflating the two, and assigning traits of one to the other, because they don't know better. More Kindred probably know of Infernalists, because they can be anyone, than they do of Baali.

Heck, the Sabbat had an internal purge of Infernalists and followers of the Path of Evil Revelations, back in the 90s. Kindred are probably more aware of those than they are of a specific Bloodline. If they know the word "Baali", it's probably as a synonym for Infernalist, or maybe as the name of a particular group of them from ancient times. A relative minority know about and appreciate the distinction. Those that do keep such knowledge close to their chest, for a variety of reasons. Including fear of spies, a desire to suppress knowledge of Infernalism around Neonates, and the general secretiveness endemic to all Kindred.

[CTPhipps]

Heck, the Sabbat had an internal purge of Infernalists and followers of the Path of Evil Revelations, back in the 90s.

This is an odd way of phrasing, "The Sabbat have always been demon infested and have fought a losing war to remove them with a massive secret police that failed in its mission."

[Gothik_Knight]

Short answer? The Toreador.

There are a couple reasons for this, but it all essentially comes down to the fact that Arikel is on the path of Humanity (being one of it's founders and all), Arikel feels that Saulot is still "alive", Arikel believes that Saulot can heal anyone of anything (He was even helping Malkav), Arikel doesn't like the idea of vampires trying to destroy each other's lineage. So Arikel hopes that Saulot will eventually be able to deal with the Baali. (she may have even seen that to be the case, or perhaps Malkav told her)

It's also been mentioned that the Tremere want people to forget about the Baali, because they're embarrassed by the fact that the Baali helped them become vampires.

One thing to note is that many of the older vampires don't really even view the Baali as being irrevocably evil. The Baali were cursed, but so are all vampires, and not all Baali are trying to destroy the world. They aren't really worse than the Tzimisce or Giovanni.

[AnubisXy]

Literally, everything else is actually a function of the occult score. You'd need at least a one to know that there's 13 Clans, many vampires believe Caine created their race, and the concept of Gehenna.

I don't disagree. I think one issue is the Clanbooks, which are often written from an in-character view of a young, recently embraced neonate being given a rundown on the Clan's history and this ends up being viewed as more of an example of what a generic, default neonate would know. In fact, I think that would usually represent someone with 2 or 3 dots of Occult rather than being the sort of thing most members of the Clan would have gone through.

[CTPhipps]

I don't disagree. I think one issue is the Clanbooks, which are often written from an in-character view of a young, recently embraced neonate being given a rundown on the Clan's history and this ends up being viewed as more of an example of what a generic, default neonate would know. In fact, I think that would usually represent someone with 2 or 3 dots of Occult rather than being the sort of thing most members of the Clan would have gone through.

Yeah, that seems like someone actually getting Clan Lore to be honest. I generally think someone who has read the main books or V20's Main Book has about a 3 in Occult equivalent. It may not all be accurate but you have the generalities of everything down as you say.

Someone who owns and has memorized ALL of the V:TM books would have a 4 - 5.

Even a 5 only represents a cursory knowledge of OTHER supernaturals like, "You are aware that werewolves are nature worshiping tribal individuals" and "mages exist and they prefer to appear coincidentals and locked in some sort of ideological struggle. You can maybe name two Traditions and an idea there's a government conspiracy" and I'd probably say you know this about 1 or 2 other splats max -- which is being generous.

[Kharnov]

Short answer? The Toreador.
It's also been mentioned that the Tremere want people to forget about the Baali, because they're embarrassed by the fact that the Baali helped them become vampires.

I've never heard this before, can you provide a source?

[Matt the Bruins fan]

Remember, the vampire population is 1 vampire to around every 100,000 people. Back during the Baali wars, that translates to less then an estimated 800 vampires total. That's like 61 vampires per clan if they were even distributed between the main 13.

As recently as the 12th century those numbers were limited to 1 vampire for every 1,000 people, and the ratio was probably quite a bit smaller back whenever the Baali Wars occurred. Clans may have been smaller in the past than in the present day (may, when Cappadocious called his clan to the Feast of Folly in Kaymalki, 12,000 showed up), but not so much as the modern ratio would indicate.