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  • #16
    You know you're making my case for me?

    Paradox doesn't want us talking about this. Paradox doesn't want me bringing up their first responses to outrage over hiring Zak to counter your counter, or how little they actually did regarding "cutting ties" compared to people like Ken Hite or OBS did. Paradox wants us to be hyped about a cool new game for V5.

    That's why this is bad PR, not bad game design, or bad legalese, or something else. Outstar's job is to make sure the community is talking about good things that add hype to the brand. If she sees something that could open old wounds, her job is to try to squash it. That's what her job is.

    It doesn't matter how you feel about the logic around. It matters what the risks of harming the brand are to the general audience of people that potentially know about the whole Zak S fiasco. Is there anything in the game that's so important that one of the two main characters is named Zak, spelled Zak, that's worth people seeing a V5 product with Zak as a main character of getting turned off by it?

    -------------

    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    If the guy's name is Zak then that means it's just a coincidence and it would be asinine to not pick him because he shares a name with a piece of crap.
    There's a reason I'm pissed off at Paradox, not the people that made the game here.

    And Paradox handled said piece of crap pretty well.
    You mean the part where they claimed to have investigated Zak and cleared him of doing anything wrong before reversing?
    Last edited by Heavy Arms; 04-11-2022, 10:13 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Thoth View Post
      At this point I feel they might have better luck with creating a turn-based strategy game like the Total War series using the VtM IP.

      This way you could model Camarilla vs. Sabbat vs. Independents on a global or regional level. The mechanics would be standard management and perhaps squad level skirmishes, with the Masquerade being the artificial cap that keeps everything from going completely out of control.

      Bonus points if they add a function so an ST could use the program to model complex territory or group interactions for their tabletop games.
      I think there is a mod for crusaders kings or something similar that allows you to simultate war between elders and meths


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        ... did my first post get deleted?

        Also... can Paradox's PR team stop making things worse? Their job is to not make things worse. Seeing a V5 video game where you play a guy named Zak is bad PR. It's obviously bad PR. Why would they do this to themselves? It's not that hard to make it Zack, or Zach, or Sam if you need to make it 3 letters, or something. nWW make Zak a name V5 needs to avoid for a long time.
        Why is naming a character Zak bad PR? I feel like there is a reason for and it picked my curiosity


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        • #19
          Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
          Why is naming a character Zak bad PR? I feel like there is a reason for and it picked my curiosity
          A few year ago there were a V:tM interactive novel wrote by a guy named Zak. Later he was accused by several women (including his ex) of sexual harassement. He was blacklisted by RPG industry, WOTC deleted his credit for their products and the game was deleted. He in turn sued his ex for defamation and, from what I know, won the case.


          Warrior of the Rainbow
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          Pure among the dirt
          Loser among winners

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
            I think there is a mod for crusaders kings or something similar that allows you to simultate war between elders and meths
            There is. I mentioned it before.


            Warrior of the Rainbow
            Saint among the sinners
            Pure among the dirt
            Loser among winners

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
              Why is naming a character Zak bad PR? I feel like there is a reason for and it picked my curiosity
              https://popcultureuncovered.com/2019...ubs-zak-smith/

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                ... did my first post get deleted?

                Also... can Paradox's PR team stop making things worse? Their job is to not make things worse. Seeing a V5 video game where you play a guy named Zak is bad PR. It's obviously bad PR. Why would they do this to themselves? It's not that hard to make it Zack, or Zach, or Sam if you need to make it 3 letters, or something. nWW make Zak a name V5 needs to avoid for a long time.
                Yeah, that felt a bit tasteless to me. And it's not like I can just write that off as coincidence. Zachary/Zachariah aren't exactly common names, and Zak is an even less common nickname. I can't imagine that the author went to random-name-generator and just happened to get Zak out of all of the names it could have spit out. So it's pretty clear to me that the choice was deliberate, intended to provoke and tweak the noses of people who were upset over Zak Smith's alleged actions and who got him removed from White Wolf. Which, fair enough, free speech and all that.

                But then for Paradox to choose to give it the go ahead tells me that either they were on board with that naming decision, or that they didn't care, or that they didn't pay any attention. Whatever the case though, it shouldn't be a surprise that people could be unhappy with getting their nose tweaked like that.

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                • #23
                  Main character in a game named Zak --> Obviously a ploy to defend a controversial figure from years ago, only now coming to fruition through an indie game. --> Paradox supporting it for some reason?

                  The logic is impeccable, bonus points for the mustache twirling on Paradox's part.


                  As for it being a bad PR move... it's not? It's a non-move, there is no controversy there (unless you are really reaching for one). The White Wolf team that defended him was disbanded before the 2019 allegations came to light, and his VTM game was deleted. He is blacklisted from the industry. There is nothing else to do or be done about it, especially on Paradox's part. It's a minor coincidence and there is nothing to point to the contrary.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                    Zachary/Zachariah aren't exactly common names, and Zak is an even less common nickname. I can't imagine that the author went to random-name-generator and just happened to get Zak out of all of the names it could have spit out.
                    I did a little research and I think that you are wrong. Assuming that this game is set in 2022 and the characters should have at least 21 years to enter the nightclub (if the game is set in US) it is safe assumption that male character was born in the wake of XXI century (he possibly is 20-30 years old). And then, according to Social Security database, Zachary was in the top 20 of popular male names. On the popularity list for a century (1921-2020, same source) it's on 58th place, above Peter or Christian. So, on the contrary, as a fan of realism I will praise their choice.


                    Warrior of the Rainbow
                    Saint among the sinners
                    Pure among the dirt
                    Loser among winners

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                      Yeah, that felt a bit tasteless to me. And it's not like I can just write that off as coincidence. Zachary/Zachariah aren't exactly common names, and Zak is an even less common nickname. I can't imagine that the author went to random-name-generator and just happened to get Zak out of all of the names it could have spit out. So it's pretty clear to me that the choice was deliberate, intended to provoke and tweak the noses of people who were upset over Zak Smith's alleged actions and who got him removed from White Wolf. Which, fair enough, free speech and all that.

                      But then for Paradox to choose to give it the go ahead tells me that either they were on board with that naming decision, or that they didn't care, or that they didn't pay any attention. Whatever the case though, it shouldn't be a surprise that people could be unhappy with getting their nose tweaked like that.
                      This is outright conspiracy theory that an indie publisher is attempting to covertly defend an abuser. I know 5 Zaks in my social circle.

                      I feel this entire line of theory is in poor taste and am going to ask everyone to drop the "Zak" theory.



                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #26
                        I think their games would be a lot more successful if they stuck to metaplot agnosticism (IE Gangrel are in the Camarilla, Tremere haven't exploded, and there is no SI or ThBl Alchemy) and used pre-5 as the basis for disciplines.

                        It's simply better to work with. Without some big sweeping overarching narrative that's doomed to overshadow everything, you're completely free to focus 100% on what happens within your city and your game. And you can also do with less studio interference because it's easier to self contain things in a city, something very important given the failure of bloodlines 2.
                        Also using more passive than active disciplines would free up controls and simplify gameplay.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                          I know 5 Zaks in my social circle.
                          Thanks for backing me up 😉.


                          Warrior of the Rainbow
                          Saint among the sinners
                          Pure among the dirt
                          Loser among winners

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            I think their games would be a lot more successful if they stuck to metaplot agnosticism (IE Gangrel are in the Camarilla, Tremere haven't exploded, and there is no SI or ThBl Alchemy) and used pre-5 as the basis for disciplines.

                            It's simply better to work with. Without some big sweeping overarching narrative that's doomed to overshadow everything, you're completely free to focus 100% on what happens within your city and your game. And you can also do with less studio interference because it's easier to self contain things in a city, something very important given the failure of bloodlines 2.
                            Also using more passive than active disciplines would free up controls and simplify gameplay.
                            I'd argue that Bloodlines managed to incorporate all of the utterly insane Metaplot of the books of the time (Wan Kuei, Anarch Free States, Gehenna, Sabbat/Camarilla war) in such a way that didn't remotely remove from its enjoyment factor.

                            Also, Coteries of New York and Shadows of New York have no real problem with the V5 narrative.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              I think their games would be a lot more successful if they stuck to metaplot agnosticism (IE Gangrel are in the Camarilla, Tremere haven't exploded, and there is no SI or ThBl Alchemy) and used pre-5 as the basis for disciplines.
                              I think that it would be difficult to do technically but I would rather give players a choice on which edition metaplot they would like to have their game based. I know that there are fans of the 5th edition. Ok, mostly because they don't know the older ones but hell, I know V:tM since 1st edition and still find a few things in the newest one that I like (unfortunately overshadowed by the things I dislike but still).


                              Warrior of the Rainbow
                              Saint among the sinners
                              Pure among the dirt
                              Loser among winners

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                I'd argue that Bloodlines managed to incorporate all of the utterly insane Metaplot of the books of the time (Wan Kuei, Anarch Free States, Gehenna, Sabbat/Camarilla war) in such a way that didn't remotely remove from its enjoyment factor.

                                Also, Coteries of New York and Shadows of New York have no real problem with the V5 narrative.

                                Bloodlines 1 was fun, but it was crazy and didn't take itself seriously at all. You don't think to yourself "this is stupid" because you know it's stupid, it knows it's stupid, and you've just killed 93 katana wielding chinese gangsters who bursted out of paper walls to prove it.
                                The only way to deal with the V5 metaplot is also to acknowledge how absolutely stupid it is.

                                But like, if you want a more serious tone for your game, players are going to turn their brains on, and so ultimately you shouldn't use metaplot. And as stupid as revised is, it doesn't hold a candle to V5.
                                Revised also has the problem of the world ending, but that's something you can ommit or delay and not cause yourself too much of a headache. V5 sets about the near irreversible demise of the vampire race.


                                Most importantly, for newcomers, metaplot is intimidating and complicated bullshit that's offputting and distracting. Simplicity is king.

                                (also like, the OG 7 clans are the best picks for new players and the OG cam is the best starting sect for people new to the series so like, yeah, almost every bit of metaplot makes the game worse for newcomers to the series)


                                Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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