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  • #46
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    Honestly, the big thing to note about 5th Edition was that it seemed based around REDUCING metaplot while incorporating at least a little back into things. The metaplor is designed around making everything very easy to understand and straight forward.

    Sabbat=Bad
    Second Inquisition=Hunters with guns
    Camarilla=Snooty clans
    Anarchs=Poor Clans
    Camarilla and Anarchs=Enemie
    Au contraire, I think that they just exchange some more complicated parts for others. For example: in previous editions various cults were in the shadows, now (judging by the sourcebooks) it's hard to find a Kindred who is not a member of one. As for SI I like the idea, especially cause two things: Red Gas as a way to reduce the battlefield in V:tM Blood Hunt (and I believe that in Chicago by Night 2nd edition there was a Cainite who invented something like that) and as a way to hamper the vampires unliving. I think that treating them as "hunters with guns" is an oversimplification, especially cause hunting (for everything, not only vampires) means guns. But imagine this: NY metro. Two guys sitting together: a teen emo and 300 years old Ventrue. They both reach for the phones: emo has a new smartphone (maybe Sunburst product 😉) and Ventrue has an old Nokia 3310 "cause you know, SI". I find it hilarious.


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    • #47
      Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
      There's sod all to remember about the Tremere or Camarilla from VTMB. The Tremere was Strauss and a player character who could either ignore the pyramid or get a sweet haven. The Camarilla was:
      • Lacroix
      • Lacroix's sheriff AKA "the sheriff"
      • Lacroix's Ventrue goons
      • Mercurio, Lacroix's ghoul
      • Strauss again, notably opposed to Lacroix
      • Gary, who has no stake in the Camarilla/Anarch conflict
      • Grout, a recluse
      • Tung
      • Tung's ghoul
      • Other goons
      So if the Camarilla was competent except for Lacroix, we're talking about Strauss, Bertram Tung and maybe Knox. And I suppose that the sheriff was good at what he did.

      Honestly, apart from Lacroix, who was supposed to be also incompetent besides being a prick, the camarilla as a whole felt fairly competent in that game, granted you didn't see a lot of it but thats just because LA was still anarch at that point and the anarchs themselves were pretty well represented overall with Nines and his crew being the morronic, ahem, I mean idealistic side of it and Isacc the more level headed and basically what made everything ticking side, really aside from the 90's weirdness, that was still very much present, that game had a good representation of the sects and factions.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Newb95 View Post


        Honestly, apart from Lacroix, who was supposed to be also incompetent besides being a prick, the camarilla as a whole felt fairly competent in that game, granted you didn't see a lot of it but thats just because LA was still anarch at that point and the anarchs themselves were pretty well represented overall with Nines and his crew being the morronic, ahem, I mean idealistic side of it and Isacc the more level headed and basically what made everything ticking side, really aside from the 90's weirdness, that was still very much present, that game had a good representation of the sects and factions.
        • Mercurio acquired guns, a boat and almost some astrolite.
        • Bertram scouted the warehouse and I assume he clocked it in the first place.
        • Bertram and Knox spotted a Wan Kuei spy and sent somebody to track and kill him.
        • Strauss sent somebody to deal with a problem that the Downtown Anarchs were already beginning to solve. It wasn't Strauss who pointed the PC to Paul or the downtown homeless community or Strauss who killed one of the four cultists.
        • Strauss talks to the PC during their bloodhunt and recommends attacking Ming Xiao, then Lacroix. As does Nines and taxi driver. Then he legitimises the coup.
        If anybody, it was the Hollywood Anarchs (and Nosferatu) who dropped the ball, as they had hunters, zombies and war ghouls, although they were reacting to those problems. The Brotherhood of the Ninth Circle arose under the watch of the Camarilla and the Downtown Anarchs, but the latter knew and did more about it.

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        • #49
          I think the biggest factor is that the Camarilla vampires almost entirely come across as more reasonable people with a better explanation of why they're in the camarilla, far moreso than their Anarch counterparts. As much as I like Isaac, he really only doesn't like the Camarilla because it infringes on his rights to his domain and it's quite obvious to see (he's also made a very stupid mistake in embracing Ash). Jack just seems out to have fun, and the rest of the anarchs have no fucking idea what they're doing (VV is kinda fine but that's because you never talk politics with her?)

          Tung is really the best source of information for players who want to know about the world, and he's Cam. Gary knows what he's doing, and he's Cam. I mean the Malkavian primogen has a stupid house, but that's more the nature of the action game format than something we should take too seriously; he's fairly level for a malk in his audiologs and seems like he would've been a good guy to talk to (yeah, he's insane, but not enough to join the Anarchs)

          The Cam/Anarch choice in VTMB hinges on the fact that LaCroix is an awful prick. If you didn't have such a clown for a boss, the choice would've been very easy for most players.


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          • #50
            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            I think the biggest factor is that the Camarilla vampires almost entirely come across as more reasonable people with a better explanation of why they're in the camarilla, far moreso than their Anarch counterparts. As much as I like Isaac, he really only doesn't like the Camarilla because it infringes on his rights to his domain and it's quite obvious to see (he's also made a very stupid mistake in embracing Ash). Jack just seems out to have fun, and the rest of the anarchs have no fucking idea what they're doing (VV is kinda fine but that's because you never talk politics with her?)

            Tung is really the best source of information for players who want to know about the world, and he's Cam. Gary knows what he's doing, and he's Cam. I mean the Malkavian primogen has a stupid house, but that's more the nature of the action game format than something we should take too seriously; he's fairly level for a malk in his audiologs and seems like he would've been a good guy to talk to (yeah, he's insane, but not enough to join the Anarchs)

            The Cam/Anarch choice in VTMB hinges on the fact that LaCroix is an awful prick. If you didn't have such a clown for a boss, the choice would've been very easy for most players.

            Thats kinda the whole point of the anarch movement, their rank and file is made of morons like Damsel and other young neonates who are just angry at the world and want to lash out, people like Isaac are the ones that made the anarch movement go behind the scenes, him being more worried about his domain is pure pragmatism since he knows that the last thing he needs with the camarilla on his back like that and the kue jin in town is to spread resources trying to resolve every problem in the city (embracing Ash was stupid but sometimes, humanity comes knocking on the door when you least expect it).

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            • #51
              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              I think the biggest factor is that the Camarilla vampires almost entirely come across as more reasonable people with a better explanation of why they're in the camarilla, far moreso than their Anarch counterparts.
              Given La Croix, this is a very "interesting" interesting of Bloodlines.

              Especially given the primary motivation of why the Anarchs were Anarchs were: "This is our home and we don't see why we should obey someone who came in and declared he can rule us."

              For all the crap Damsel gets, the fact is that she responds to Brother Vick's cult with, "Kill it to protect the Masquerade." Skelter also sends you to murder a ghoul running her mouth off.

              The Anarchs are not remotely disorganized (ironic) or incapable of running LA. It's also a point that Therese is not a Camarilla Baron but an Anarch one.


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              • #52
                Therese is also relatively level headed, but seems willing to join with the Cam if it'll let her consolidate her power. On the other hand she didn't try to enforce an annoying Camarilla tradition in her domain like Issac does.

                Nines isn't stupid or unreasonable either, he's just got very strong principles that aren't compatible with the Camarilla traditions. Those same principles that stop him from claiming the title of Baron, namely that most kindred aren't stupid and will informally uphold traditions like the Masquerade and regulating embraces without oversight. At least on the Masquerade he might actually be right.

                The Cam/Anarch decision at the end is basically a choice between Strauss and Nines, both of who have been roughly as helpful as the other. But not all Anarchs are Nines, and V5 has arguably made each sect less reasonable.


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                • #53
                  Originally posted by TwoDSix View Post
                  The Cam/Anarch decision at the end is basically a choice between Strauss and Nines, both of who have been roughly as helpful as the other. But not all Anarchs are Nines, and V5 has arguably made each sect less reasonable.
                  I admit, part of what I like about Bloodlines is it presents the Anarchs as a viable sect but it doesn't shy away from the "warts and all" approach. Isaac Abrams is probably one of the most singularly dedicated Anarchs in the group and has been there for a long time but he's also effectively a Camarilla Prince in behavior, class, and influence. There's no reason to replace him as "Baron" because he's identical to how a Camarilla Prince WOULD be running it--he just probably has some seething hatred of them leftover from the Anarch Revolt against Don Sebastatian. He also would tear you apart if you suggested he was like a Camarilla prince or lackey.

                  (I speculate he's also Christopher's childe)

                  Therese is an Anarch because it's the only game in town or was until the Camarilla came. If the Camarilla is kicked out, she'll be a Baron still and if it wins, she'll switch to being Primogen. That's the "selfish prick" angle of an Ancilla and I'm sure pretty common.

                  And you have Nines who is the ideologically driven Anarch who walks the walk but is constantly under attack by people who recognize he's a lynchpin of the Anarchs in the region. If Nines was gone, the Anarchs in LA would undoubtedly fall apart.


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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Karos View Post

                    *long and indepth post* .
                    I'd love to see them try to explain the full frontal lobotomy suffered by the entire Cam and Sabbat....and how exactly the mind numbling dull anarchs are actually super cool and we can only play them....

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                      I'd love to see them try to explain the full frontal lobotomy suffered by the entire Cam and Sabbat....and how exactly the mind numbling dull anarchs are actually super cool and we can only play them....
                      Can you write without bashing an edition and playstyle? Please take a warning.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                      Forum Terms of Use
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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                        I'd love to see them try to explain the full frontal lobotomy suffered by the entire Cam and Sabbat....and how exactly the mind numbling dull anarchs are actually super cool and we can only play them....

                        I think the answer is pretty simple. the writers probably have a vision of their game that has the anarchs, somehow, being the cool good guys (I haven't seen anything up to this point that would qualify them for being either cool or good) and all the rest as evil and stupid assholes.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                          Can you write without bashing an edition and playstyle? Please take a warning.


                          since I can't lie about the current state of the game, no, laters all.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                            I'd love to see them try to explain the full frontal lobotomy suffered by the entire Cam and Sabbat....and how exactly the mind numbling dull anarchs are actually super cool and we can only play them....
                            While I don't own the Sabbat book, I do own the Camarilla book, and the Cam are very much presented as an option for PCs. They're traditionalists and reactionaries, and they've made some stupid mistakes over the last two decades, but they're also competent enough to fix the parts of the mess they can and help protect kindred who join them. They've been pushed towards the kindred elite niche, but they've not been made complete incompetents or bastards (in fact their level of bastardry is mostly unchanged, they've just become a lot more exclusive).

                            As for how the Anarchs are actually super cool, I think that's more an attempt to return to the early days of Vampire where the Anarchs were cool because they were the ones fighting the elitist and oppressive elders in the Camarilla. Sadly they were less cool than the Sabbat, and so V5 decided to put the Sabbat on the high self where only the ST is allowed to play with them. Then they went and tried to make the Anarchs into Diet Sabbat, which is to me less interesting than either their earlier implementation or the Sabbat.

                            But I'm certain there are people who like the new Anarchs and Sabbat. That's fine, my Masquerade is a mashup of V20 and V5 lore anyway.


                            Blue is sarcasm.

                            If I suggestion I make contradicts in-setting metaphysics please ignore me, I probably brought in scientific ideas.

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