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How many of you think that Augustus Giovanni was diaberlized by one of his progeny?

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  • #16
    'The only clan whose 3rd gen progenitor is sure to be dead is Ravnos' can we be sure that was ravnos and not an illusion the antediluvian made.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by The smiling gun-knight View Post
      'The only clan whose 3rd gen progenitor is sure to be dead is Ravnos' can we be sure that was ravnos and not an illusion the antediluvian made.
      Official canon has declared Zapathasura destroyed, but they acknowledge this as an option Storytellers are welcome to go with instead. I think the in-game logic is that the Ravnos Antediluvian was in a Frenzy during his rampage, and thus was unable to pull off such a deception with Chimerstry.

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      • #19
        Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
        That can also helps to explain why the Hecata don't experience the Beckoning.
        That makes a lot of sense.

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        • #20
          Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
          . I think the in-game logic is that the Ravnos Antediluvian was in a Frenzy during his rampage, and thus was unable to pull off such a deception with Chimerstry.
          Wich is pretty stupid, considering Zappy not only had Chimestry, but Animalism, and several of its power basically makes you either immune to Frenzy or allows you too keep your sanity, ride the Wave, or simply toss out your beast (I actually had a funny session where tho' Zappy escaped destruction, his P'o/Beast - was a bitly crossowery story with KotE - wandered away, and the party in service of the antediluvian (and other ancients) had to track it down and capture the host tiger, that became a Raksahsa-like demon) out to pester others
          Another flaw in that theory, the Week of Nightmares was around most likely Monday, June 28 to Sunday, July 4, 1999. Thats... darn long time for a frenzy! And against the three of the eldest Kuei-jin Bodhisattvas Zappy used a plathora of powers not just brute might, fang and claws...
          Thats not really possible if you are out of your mind in a Frenzy

          And... there is that little V5 thing, called "Blood of Zapathasura" - Thick, sentient ropes of his vitae stained the ground in Bangladesh where he fell. The noonday sun did not destroy it all. You own a small vial containing the Blood of the Ravnos Antediluvian. What you do with this vitae is up to you, and what it does to anyone who imbibes it is up to the Storyteller.

          Funny to think, Zapathasura became Venom-like
          Anyhow, Malkav survived destruction after he was torn to shreds, and several of his children gathered and consumed his blood, shileding it from the sun, in themselves... Maybe Zappy pulled a Malkav
          All and all, it will be forever hard to swallow for almost everyone he"died"
          Last edited by Shadeprowler; 04-17-2022, 09:29 AM.

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          • #21
            The books say he's dead, but I imagine there's a lot of beings in the WoD who assume that it's a ruse or that if any vampire could have pulled off the the trick of faking a death, it would be the vampire who has completely mastered chimerstry.

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            • #22
              A headcanon of mine is that no Antediluvian is permanently dead if their bloodlines still exist. They just end up in a non-physical torpor like state. With enough time and if enough potent Blood, Sorcery, Unobtanium or Plot Devices are gathered together, Ravnos will be able to awaken and take physical form again. Or maybe he will just choose to continue existing in the Blood, though with greater conscience.

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              • #23
                The antidevulians certainly make final death just a minor inconvenience.


                What in the name of Set is going on here?

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                • #24
                  Which brings up an old question: is Ventrue really dead? Supposedly he died way back during the 2nd city, which is very hard to believe. With no Antedeluvian to periodically pop out baby 4rth gens, the Ventrue should have long since gone extinct, or, at a minimum, faded into a tiny, thin-blooded bloodline.

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                  • #25
                    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                    Which brings up an old question: is Ventrue really dead? Supposedly he died way back during the 2nd city, which is very hard to believe. With no Antedeluvian to periodically pop out baby 4rth gens, the Ventrue should have long since gone extinct, or, at a minimum, faded into a tiny, thin-blooded bloodline.
                    it certainly makes things complicated in regards to certain Antedeluvian fates. I think that Ventrue nevered suffered final death and like Brujah resides in a new form and periodically makes it’s presence felt.


                    What in the name of Set is going on here?

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                    • #26
                      Originally posted by Shadeprowler View Post
                      Wich is pretty stupid, considering Zappy not only had Chimestry, but Animalism, and several of its power basically makes you either immune to Frenzy or allows you too keep your sanity, ride the Wave, or simply toss out your beast (I actually had a funny session where tho' Zappy escaped destruction, his P'o/Beast - was a bitly crossowery story with KotE - wandered away, and the party in service of the antediluvian (and other ancients) had to track it down and capture the host tiger, that became a Raksahsa-like demon) out to pester others
                      Another flaw in that theory, the Week of Nightmares was around most likely Monday, June 28 to Sunday, July 4, 1999. Thats... darn long time for a frenzy! And against the three of the eldest Kuei-jin Bodhisattvas Zappy used a plathora of powers not just brute might, fang and claws...
                      Thats not really possible if you are out of your mind in a Frenzy

                      And... there is that little V5 thing, called "Blood of Zapathasura" - Thick, sentient ropes of his vitae stained the ground in Bangladesh where he fell. The noonday sun did not destroy it all. You own a small vial containing the Blood of the Ravnos Antediluvian. What you do with this vitae is up to you, and what it does to anyone who imbibes it is up to the Storyteller.

                      Funny to think, Zapathasura became Venom-like
                      Anyhow, Malkav survived destruction after he was torn to shreds, and several of his children gathered and consumed his blood, shileding it from the sun, in themselves... Maybe Zappy pulled a Malkav
                      All and all, it will be forever hard to swallow for almost everyone he"died"
                      Apologies for the delay in response, been busy the last few days.

                      Beyond being the kind of person who prefers to stick with canon when it has been established, I'm not especially attached to the idea that Zapathasura was definitely destroyed. But I do have some thoughts regarding your response:

                      There are Animalism powers that help you resist or make you immune to Frenzy, but the only one that he would be guaranteed to have would be the level 5 power that lets you put your Beast into someone else; if there was no viable target when he awoke, he might have been overcome by Frenzy before being able to avoid it. If Zapathasura had focused on other Elder-level Animalism powers rather than the ones that help control Frenzy, he may have just been out of luck.

                      I do agree that it's a long time for a Frenzy, and I haven't read the source material in a while, but it's possible that he may have become a wight instead of just being in a Frenzy. Or it might have been a supernaturally-provoked Frenzy that lasted longer as a result (and thus adds a layer of mystery and scheming to the whole event: who could possibly manipulate an Antediluvian like that?).

                      Again, it's been a while since I read the full account of the Week of Nightmares, but depending on what kinds of powers he mustered against the three Bodhisattvas, they may have been ones that he could use in a Frenzy. Stuff like Blood Magic is generally off the table when you're a wight or in a Frenzy, but any power that you can use instinctively is available. Thus, even if the supernatural powers Zapathasura was using against the Wan Kuei were extremely powerful, he wouldn't need to be in control of himself if they were simply instances of supernatural "brute force" being tossed around.

                      All of this sets aside a couple of other possible factors. Firstly, fighting against the Bodhisattvas may have used up enough of the supernatural power that Zapathasura had at his disposal that he didn't have the strength left to alter reality itself in such a fashion. Or it might be that the "spirit-nukes" used by the Technocracy disrupted his powers in some way that he *couldn't* use his Chimerstry to alter reality in order to escape the situation. That sort of thing seems like a matter of Storyteller fiat than anything else, but I'm inclined to think that if there's anything that could overpower an Antediluvian and take it down, the entire might of the Technocracy being aimed at it would be one of the possibilities.

                      The Blood of Zapathasura is one thing that throws a wrench in a lot of what I've just said, and I really feel that it's a weird choice on V5's part to have something like that exist. Having someone collect vials of the Antediluvian's fallen vitae and then getting out of dodge before the whole situation went nuclear is a bit of a stretch but not unbelievable. But having the Antediluvian's vitae continuing to exist and even surviving direct sunlight is an extremely odd choice IMO, and does seem to directly defy the established canon around Zapathasura's demise.


                      Which does kind of lead into the wider point I wanted to discuss, which is that I personally don't like the Antediluvian's being treated as transcendental beings by default, as literal gods that are something fundamentally different from their childer. I like the Antediluvians to simply be bigger, badder vampires by default; far more powerful due to their age and Generation, but not operating by special rules without specific circumstances explaining how they have become something different/more. And thus, while some Antediluvians might have found a way to change into something other than a vampire, or live in through their descendants in some special way, I like to imagine that many of the Antediluvians are still "only" vampires, even if they represent the pinnacle of the power a vampire can achieve. In particular, the ones that focus more on temporal power or human experiences than spiritual development.

                      So we have Antediluvians like Tzimisce, Lasombra, and Cappadocius that are explicitly described as becoming something else, or attempting to do so at least. Then we have others where such an evolution is strongly implied, like with Malkav and Saulot. But when it comes to Antediluvians like Arikel or Absimiliard, I imagine that they have never really been focused on that kind of transcendence, and thus have remained fundamentally like other vampires, just more powerful. And that's kind of the fate I imagine for the Ventrue Antediluvian if they survived and faked their destruction; either living in the Antediluvian equivalent of retirement, or quietly manipulating events from the shadows.

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                      • #27
                        My homebrew:

                        The family gathered at Familly Reunion and held a ritual feast on the body and soul of Augustus.
                        He wasn't diabolized by one vampire.
                        His blood and soul served a greater purpose. Everyone participating in the feast became one family. Hecata. And their descendants also underwent a transformation, for so great is the power of the antediluvian blood.

                        Thanks to this, we have a new Hecata bloodline, and there are some vampires from the original bloodlines whose ancestors did not take part in the ritual feast.

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                        • #28
                          Originally posted by Mr. Stick View Post
                          My homebrew:

                          The family gathered at Familly Reunion and held a ritual feast on the body and soul of Augustus.
                          He wasn't diabolized by one vampire.
                          His blood and soul served a greater purpose. Everyone participating in the feast became one family. Hecata. And their descendants also underwent a transformation, for so great is the power of the antediluvian blood.

                          Thanks to this, we have a new Hecata bloodline, and there are some vampires from the original bloodlines whose ancestors did not take part in the ritual feast.
                          That is an interesting take on what happened to Augustus Giovanni and how the disparte lineages are now changing.


                          What in the name of Set is going on here?

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                          • #29
                            I'd rather it not known.
                            Maybe my players can chomp him, or influence who chomped him, or discover who chomped him and correspondingly chomp them. Actually writing an answer denies me a lot of fun, I'd rather have a WhoDunnit list of likely suspects.

                            Ravana also should be as ambiguous as possible. If anything, the best scenario for that is -didn't happen- because, while metaplot is cool at times, it does shit on a lot of stuff.

                            Antes and ancient methuselahs work best when they're unknown. History works best for storytellers when it's as unreliable as it can get away with. That way STs have maximum leway to posit their TRUE canon to players who don't already know it.


                            Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                            There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                            • #30
                              So you find giving ancients getting stated limiting also My Wife Is Scary.


                              What in the name of Set is going on here?

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