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Playing with the idea of using V5 Hunger in V20

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  • Prometheas
    started a topic Playing with the idea of using V5 Hunger in V20

    Playing with the idea of using V5 Hunger in V20

    Was thinking about merging some of V5's hunger mechanics into earlier edition's blood pool system for a one off game(with the possibility of using it in future games if it's fun). I want to know if people have done similar tweaks or have suggestions.

    Quick in dirty first draft is BP is still at thing with hunger added on top. Vampires only make a rouse check if they spend the max bp per turn for their generation and automatically gain hunger levels if they spend BP when their pool is at 3 or less.

    This system Does punish high gens a lot more than low gens, but I also think that fits the setting.

    It basically sets it up so that from the perspective of ancilla and elders, neonate vampires are constantly needy, constantly hungry, and every time they need to patch a masquerade breach, it seems like it's always a snot-nosed neonate that can't keep their beast on a leash like a Proper Vampire. Thin bloods are the worst offenders of All, because their natural weaknesses(blood pool less than 10, 2x the blood expenditure for the same disciplines) means they're a masquerade breach waiting to happen.

  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post


    Honestly, not as much as I thought. We only managed the one test Session and the players had prior warning that I was messing with hunger rules, so they were mindful of being conservative with their BP from the get-go.

    I'll try to give updates, but Trying to get everyone's schedules to align post-lockdown has been a nightmare.
    I guess it could be useful to test it over multiple sessions. Will that focus on vitae drop off as players become comfortable with the new rules, for example? If it drops off too much, then you may need a couple of dials to add a tad more risk back in. If it becomes too overwhelming, likewise, you might want to drop something or make it rarer.

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  • Prometheas
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

    This is good to hear. Did you get many players opting to take Compulsions? How often did BFs and MCs come up?

    Honestly, not as much as I thought. We only managed the one test Session and the players had prior warning that I was messing with hunger rules, so they were mindful of being conservative with their BP from the get-go.

    I'll try to give updates, but Trying to get everyone's schedules to align post-lockdown has been a nightmare.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
    Okay, After some playtesting the combo of rules people liked the best were:
    1. Hunger dice gained in accordance with @Rhywbeth's BP chart
    2. V20 Hunger frenzy rules dropped, Other forms of frenzy still apply
    3. @adambeyoncelowe's suggestion on beast natures and compulsions
    In play: players became a Lot more aware of their blood pools and became Much jumpier even when they were above half their max(as situation where the same players were still comfortable getting into a fight when under normal rules). Effectively accomplishing what I was going for.
    This is good to hear. Did you get many players opting to take Compulsions? How often did BFs and MCs come up?

    Leave a comment:


  • Prometheas
    replied
    Okay, After some playtesting the combo of rules people liked the best were:
    1. Hunger dice gained in accordance with @Rhywbeth's BP chart
    2. V20 Hunger frenzy rules dropped, Other forms of frenzy still apply
    3. @adambeyoncelowe's suggestion on beast natures and compulsions
    In play: players became a Lot more aware of their blood pools and became Much jumpier even when they were above half their max(as situation where the same players were still comfortable getting into a fight when under normal rules). Effectively accomplishing what I was going for.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Rhywbeth View Post
    (I'd also restrict the addition of hunger dice to a roll to situations that the beast would give a shit about. Like, if you're under stress, exposed to blood when hungry, feeding, etc)
    Also, this is generally a good idea, provided it's balanced against how easy these things are to roll naturally.

    One thing I've done is give every PC a Beast Nature (inspired by KotE). If a roll is related to that Beast Nature (or to general Beast-y things like hunting, fleeing banes or violence), they can *add* their Hunger Dice (increasing their chance of a Messy Crit but generally doing better).

    If the roll requires concentration and calm, or directly opposes the Beast Nature, and occurs under pressure, they substitute normal dice for Hunger Dice instead.

    If you have plenty of time to hand and the action is low stakes, you don't need to roll the Hunger Dice at all.

    For Frenzy tests, if a PC succeeds on their first roll but is far off getting the requisite five successes to entirely ignore it, I let them take a Compulsion instead of continuing to roll (and risk a failure).

    And for Degeneration tests, even if you succeed, you will manifest a Compulsion as your Beast exerts itself in the face of temptation and depravity. You can spend Willpower to ignore this, as usual. (I was inspired by the way CoD adds Conditions for successful rolls to avoid Frenzy and Detachment, only ignoring these if you roll crits.)

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  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    There are several ways to do it. Dividing the pool evenly into five blocks is the easiest. Alternatively, you may want it to be uneven distribution, so:

    10 BP = 1 Hunger
    7-9 BP = 2 Hunger
    4-6 BP = 3 Hunger
    2-3 BP = 4 Hunger
    0-1 BP = 5 Hunger

    Or even:

    10 = 1 Hunger
    8-9 = 2 Hunger
    5-7 = 3 Hunger
    2-4 = 4 Hunger
    0-1 = 5 Hunger

    That way, people will get more dice sooner. But it's entirely up to you. It also depends how you make Bestial Failures and Messy Crits work (if at all). I'd be tempted to go for a botch where the 1 is on a Hunger Dice for BFs and exceptional successes (5+ successes) where there's a 10 on the Hunger Dice for MCs. But that would make both probably less prevalent than in V5.

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  • Rhywbeth
    replied
    The thing with low generation vs high, as represented by the blood pool, is that the vitae of a purer vampire yields more power than the watered-down, half-dead battery that is the likes of 13th generation vitae. It does more, for longer. The con of this is that the power discrepancy between purer vitae compared to mortal blood is that when you blow most of your blood pool, you're going to need a lot of blood to get it back. Lower gens burn through vitae and get hungry fast, but sate themselves easier and find humane options more readily feasible. A high gen gets hungry slower, but when they're hungry they're hungry.
    I would have every chunk of the blood pool lost/diminished, result in a single hunger die gained. The pool is divided into fifths. For example, for a 13th generation every 2 BP is worth 1 hunger die. Like;

    BP: OO|OO|OO|OO|OO
    Hunger: 1|2|3|4|5 [No Hunger]

    Said 13th gen spends their first BP to rise from torpor, moves into the territory of that first die,

    OO|OO|OO|OO|OO
    1|2|3|4|5

    That's easy enough to get back. A single blood bag or rat will put you back at hunger 0 before you start your evening. You can buy animal blood in large amounts from the butchers and keep it in the fridge, so breakfast isn't hard to come by.
    Later in the evening they've burned up half their blood pool, then it looks like this;

    OO|OO|OO|OO|OO
    1|2|3|4|5

    Across the genrations:
    Gen 16-10 = 2 dots per 1 dice*, OO|OO|OO|OO|OO OOO
    Generations 9-8 = 3 per 1, OOO|OOO|OOO|O OO|OOO
    Generation 7 = 4 per 1, OOOO|OOOO|OO OO|OOOO|OOOO
    Generation 6 = 6 per 1, OOOOOO|OOOO OO|OOOOOO|OO OOOO|OOOOOO
    Generation 5 = 8 per 1, OOOOOOOO|OO OOOOOO|OOOO OOOO|OOOOOO OO|OOOOOOOO
    Generation 4 = 10 per 1, OOOOOOOOOO | OOOOOOOOOO | OOOOOOOOOO | OOOOOOOOOO | OOOOOOOOOO

    Now imagine a vampire of each of these generations hits 0, frenzies and drains a human dry (gaining 10 BP)
    The lowest generations are fully sated, or close enough that taking the edge off will take little work. However, the elder generations are still hungry. 7th gens are at 3 hunger, genrations 6-4 are at hunger 4. An Antediluvian could drain a human and still be starving. Hell, those guys could drain another vampire and still be around hunger 4, at best.

    13th gen and thin bloods, as said, get hungry fast but can sate themselves pretty easily.
    *Generations 12-10 are much the same, but can wring a bit more out of their last drops of vitae
    9-8 are a little more powerful, a little less (or more) hungry.

    Elder generations... You can only safely take about 2 blood points from a mortal (and, realistically, donors should receive months of recovery time), stored blood and animal blood is typically worth less than that. If you hardly ever spend blood, then you're far more stable than the higher generations could dream of. But you may need your powers to defend yourself against threats to your existence (aforementioned higher generation vampires dreaming of power and stability, for example), so you can't guarantee you'll always be able to escape hunger. Lower generation comes with much more planning and management. Low generation means you can be a blood god, but to do that you're going to be either micromanaging the hell out of your unlife, or a murderer.

    (I'd also restrict the addition of hunger dice to a roll to situations that the beast would give a shit about. Like, if you're under stress, exposed to blood when hungry, feeding, etc)
    Last edited by Rhywbeth; 04-19-2022, 10:32 AM.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    On fitting the setting, I disagree. The staple of the setting is the idea of ancient vampires being monsters that feast frequently in huge amounts of blood, with no regard to mortal lives, to the point of torpor becoming the only check on their depredations,
    I think this is a bit of a corruption. Ancient monsters? Sure. No regard for mortal lives? Feast frequently on huge amounts of blood? That's more paranoia/propaganda/fear of the unknown. Vampires dread older vampires because they're more powerful than them and likely to ruin the status quo if they return. Ancient vampires being apocalyptic monsters has always been more wild imaginations/Gehenna mongering/Diablerie justification/doomsday mockery. Throughout most editions ancient vampires have simply been regular vampires, but better. Prometheas isn't deviating from the norm, he's using the standard and original intention by making low gens> high gens.
    Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 04-19-2022, 01:26 AM.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
    This system Does punish high gens a lot more than low gens, but I also think that fits the setting.
    On fitting the setting, I disagree. The staple of the setting is the idea of ancient vampires being monsters that feast frequently in huge amounts of blood, with no regard to mortal lives, to the point of torpor becoming the only check on their depredations, while Neonates are the almost-human ones that keep in touch with humanity, are able to function in mortal society and even care if they want. It is the opposite of Neonates dealing with hunger more frequently than older or more powerful vampires. That's pretty clear on most mechanics and fluff, from Generation to Humanity, and even to how slacking Hunger works on V5 (powerful vampires may lose Hunger slower, but as soon as it sets in they really need to go overboard for any meager recovering).

    That said, go for it, I don't think your idea for the setting is bad, just wanted to make it clear that it is actually a deviation of the norm. And a big one on top of that.

    For comments on the ruling itself:

    1 - Making Rouse Checks every time they spend the maximum BP/turn seems too harsh and also too cumbersome. Unless you let all the players begin at 11th Gen or better, changing the assumed baseline of the game, it's effectively applying two distinct rules at the same time, every time, a lot of bookkeeping and too punishing on any use of Blood at all. It may work for a survival-style game where feeding is always a focus of the action, but makes any other style of play too hard unless the characters Diablerize their way to 11th Gen;

    2 - I think you should scrap normal rules on hunger-induced Frenzy if you go this route. Basically your take on Hunger is an alternate Hunger Frenzy system, keeping the two is just redundancy. Adjust any of them to your needs, but don't keep two distinct systems with the same role without a clear vision of how they'll fulfill distinct roles in your game.

    Since it is a one-shot, no need to take any of this too seriously, you'll test your rule in a safe environment anyways.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied


    2/3rds+ 0 hunger dice. If vampires are to be secret predators, they need to be mostly in control over their shit. That and i think controlling the beast should be a matter of personal responsibility and player agency. "the Beast made me do it" should never be an excuse that well fed, shit-together vampires make.
    between 1/3 and 2/3- 1 dice
    less than 1/3rd- 2 dice
    three blood left -3 Hunger Dice
    two blood left- 4 hunger dice
    one blood or less left* -5 hunger dice

    *Remember, you can use health levels instead of blood if you're starved.
    Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 04-18-2022, 09:59 AM.

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