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Necromancy used by the Telyavelic Tremere is far more useful than the Necromancy used by the Giovanni

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  • Necromancy used by the Telyavelic Tremere is far more useful than the Necromancy used by the Giovanni

    Although they call it a Thaumaturgy path, I find that it is much more similar to necromancy. The path is called "Path of the Shadow World" and is perhaps better than the necromancy used by the Giovanni. You can find this path in Libellus Sanguinis 2, Page 67. The powers at each level are described below.

    Path of the Shadow World

    1) See the dead- Allows you to see ghosts, and sense their presence in the area.

    2) Repel the Angry Dead- Allows you to banish ghosts

    3) Command the Freshly Dead- Allows you to give any command to a ghost, as long as it doesn't require a material form to accomplish

    4) Army of souls- Raise a troop of ghosts that hurl objects and frighten away attackers.

    5) Walk the Road of Shadows- At this level the kindred can travel to the Shadowlands. The vampire in question is perceived as a particularly solid wraith by the other denizens and can bring others with them on the journey.

    As you can clearly see, this path is a mixture of both Sepulchre path and Ash path. But unlike those two, path of the shadow world is far more versatile and is a lot less risky to the vampires safety. Plus you get two paths for the price of one.

    What are your thoughts?
    Last edited by Hello; 04-22-2022, 06:29 PM.



  • #2
    Hate this. Namely because this just straight The Sepulchre Path, The Ash Path, with Summon Ethereal Horde at level 4 rolled into one. I don't like redundancy.


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    • #3
      Not in the slightest, no. It's like paying all that xp for a watered down version of a handful of things a real necromancer can do while being locked out of the rest of the toolset. Having the real Sepulchre and Ash paths is much more versatile, more useful and only slightly more expensive.

      I also note you can't properly communicate with a wraith that can't project its voice through the shroud, since you can't hear past the shroud without stepping through it at 5 dots.

      See the Dead is nothing special. Literally equivalent to the Sepulchre path, and inferior to Shroudsight.

      Repel the dead is fine, but you could do that with rituals, locating and threatening their fetters, using compel soul, binding, torment, or simply bargaining with them in some cases.

      Command the Freshly Dead is just Compel Soul, except not bolstered by Summon Spirit. Yes, you can force a wraith to do a few things for you, but you don't necessarily know them or what they can do and you can't track them or call them at will when you need them. They're much less useful as contacts, retainers, allies, spirit slaves and whatever when you have no better means of getting in touch.

      Army of Souls literally just calls up a bunch of drones, mindless echoes that repeat a set of actions ad infinitum until someone melts their soul down into an object. Not really that useful.

      Walk the Road of Shadows is weak compared to the ash path. More limited, since you lack access to the entire Underworld and are there on a time limit. More expensive than ex-nihilo in blood and experience, and you can't use shroudsight to look before you walk in. You're also limited by missing out on dots 1-3 and have no access to Shroud mastery.
      Last edited by Rhywbeth; 04-23-2022, 07:00 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Rhywbeth View Post
        Not in the slightest, no. It's like paying all that xp for a watered down version of a handful of things a real necromancer can do while being locked out of the rest of the toolset. Having the real Sepulchre and Ash paths is much more versatile, more useful and only slightly more expensive.

        I also note you can't properly communicate with a wraith that can't project its voice through the shroud, since you can't hear past the shroud without stepping through it at 5 dots.

        See the Dead is nothing special. Literally equivalent to the Sepulchre path, and inferior to Shroudsight.

        Repel the dead is fine, but you could do that with rituals, locating and threatening their fetters, using compel soul, binding, torment, or simply bargaining with them in some cases.

        Command the Freshly Dead is just Compel Soul, except not bolstered by Summon Spirit. Yes, you can force a wraith to do a few things for you, but you don't necessarily know them or what they can do and you can't track them or call them at will when you need them. They're much less useful as contacts, retainers, allies, spirit slaves and whatever when you have no better means of getting in touch.

        Army of Souls literally just calls up a bunch of drones, mindless echoes that repeat a set of actions ad infinitum until someone melts their soul down into an object. Not really that useful.

        Walk the Road of Shadows is weak compared to the ash path. More limited, since you lack access to the entire Underworld and are there on a time limit. More expensive than ex-nihilo in blood and experience, and you can't use shroudsight to look before you walk in. You're also limited by missing out on dots 1-3 and have no access to Shroud mastery.

        I feel like you are missing out on the big advantages of this path. You dont need to worry about calling a specter on a botch unlike schulper path, and unlike ash path you dont have to worry about wraiths attacking you because they know you are a vampire.

        See the dead allows you to sense ghosts and their attitude. I feel knowing whether the ghost in your area is just an angry wraith, or a homocidal specter to be pretty alluring.

        Rituals, and all the other stuff you describe is going to take a lot of time, it would be much faster to just banish the ghost and be done with it.

        Command the Freshly Dead can be used to make wraiths answer your questions. If you want to know more about about the wraith just command them to answer your questions. The book outright states you could do this.

        Army of Souls can be used as a valuable distraction, and throwing torches seems pretty powerful. Have your ghouls light a couple torches or small objects on fire and give it to your ghost troop, see how much damage can be done while you run away.

        Walk the road of shadows hides the fact that you are a vampire. This makes information gathering a lot more easier, and you can bring someone else with you to the shadow lands, now you can gather information a lot faster.

        This path is not only less riskier, it takes the best of two paths and makes it more useful for a vampire who doesn't want to waste all his time on finding fretters and other time consuming activities.
        Last edited by Hello; 04-23-2022, 05:18 PM.


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        • #5
          Deleted for double posting


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Hello View Post
            I feel like you are missing out on the big advantages of this path. You dont need to worry about calling a specter on a botch unlike schulper path,
            No, I got that. It's still a weak and limited copy of the real discipline and that doesn't make up for it. The big advantage of real Necromancy is having wraiths and arcanoi at your disposal whenever you need it and cultivating backgrounds specifically for this purpose.

            and unlike ash path you dont have to worry about wraiths attacking you because they know you are a vampire.
            Well, you sure will once you've finished walking up to random wraiths and enslaving them to your will to force them to answer your questions and obey your commands. Or driving them away from their business in the Skinlands. They won't like that from a Tremere any more than a Giovanni, and they gossip, so the local necropolis will know who you are.

            Mediums are invaluable allies for wraiths and they're rare. Wraiths in general don't automatically attack you just because you're a vampire. If you're not an active threat, you may be worth the trouble of bargaining with. Some might be hostile, if they know enough about the Giovanni, but it's not a guarantee in any way.

            See the dead allows you to sense ghosts and their attitude. I feel knowing whether the ghost in your area is just an angry wraith, or a homocidal specter to be pretty alluring.
            Not enough to make up for the net loss of everything else.

            Rituals, and all the other stuff you describe is going to take a lot of time, it would be much faster to just banish the ghost and be done with it.
            Which necromancy can do, one way or another, so again, doesn't make this more useful.

            Command the Freshly Dead can be used to make wraiths answer your questions. If you want to know more about about the wraith just command them to answer your questions. The book outright states you could do this.
            Which is far less useful when you can't just stick the wraith on a list of contacts and call it up when you need that ability.
            This path is the power of walking up to a guy on the street and forcing him to answer your questions (which probably won't garner you any fond feelings). You don't have the guys contact information, so you'd better hope you can find him in this spot again.
            A Giovanni with the proper tools knows where their allies/servants are in the underworld at any time and can summon them at any time and bind them to a specific location or object so they definitely know where they are at any time.

            Army of Souls can be used as a valuable distraction, and throwing torches seems pretty powerful. Have your ghouls light a couple torches or small objects on fire and give it to your ghost troop, see how much damage can be done while you run away.
            If you want mindless minions that can follow simple orders like that, get the Bone Path; Apprentice's Brooms, torches, "throw these over there".
            Better yet, summon proper wraiths and have them create any of many extremely useful effects including this one.

            Walk the road of shadows hides the fact that you are a vampire. This makes information gathering a lot more easier, and you can bring someone else with you to the shadow lands, now you can gather information a lot faster.
            Ex-nihilo does the same thing. "While in the lands of the dead, the vampire is essentially an extra-solid ghost." Also you literally make a door, there' no reason somebody else can't step through it. The Tal'Mahe'Ra can take others into the Underworld, and as of V5 ex-nihilo does allow group travel, so there's basis for it.

            This path not only less riskier, it takes the best of two paths and makes it more useful for a vampire who doesn't want to waste all his time on finding fretters and other time consuming activities.
            The best of the Sepulchre Path is Summon Soul, which isn't here. You can't call on your backgrounds without that ability, so the use of this path is entirely circumstantial.
            The best of the Ash Path is Ex-Nihilo and Shroud Mastery (facilitating a wraith's abilities or shutting them down) and being able to hide in and explore an entire other side of existence. Furthermore, a user of the Ash Path can interact with the shadowlands without the costs of going all the way in. This is all or nothing and you don't even get the full benefits.

            Again, anything this can do, Necromancy can also do, then do it better, and then do even more stuff this can't do. Far more uses for the real thing. Slightly lower risk for a few things doesn't make up for it or make it more useful.
            Last edited by Rhywbeth; 04-23-2022, 01:36 PM.

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            • #7
              This path is better ignored in my opinion. Thaumaturgy is already immensely versatile, there's no need to give it Necromancy's powers. Imposing some limits on what Thaumaturgy can affect would probably be for the best. Wraiths should not be under Thaumaturgy's purview.
              In fact, if you want to make Necromancy a bit more interesting, you could expand a bit it's purview, perhaps giving it the powers in the path of Oneiromancy, for example, and/or the Path of Karma (perhaps as rituals).

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              • #8
                I tend to frown upon thaumaturgy doing necromancy powers in general for both thematic and mechanical reasons.

                I'd probably ban this in game.

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                • #9
                  This style of Thaumaturgy isn't as good as all of the powers of different Necromancy Paths combined, but it definitely picked out some of the best powers and jumbled them together into a single Path that requires a lot less of an investment compared to getting all of those powers from various Necromancy Paths.

                  Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
                  I tend to frown upon thaumaturgy doing necromancy powers in general for both thematic and mechanical reasons.

                  I'd probably ban this in game.
                  Yeah, I would ban this too. Just like I would ban a Necromancy Path that picked various really strong powers from Thaumaturgy and then just jumbled them together as some new Necromancy Path.
                  Last edited by AnubisXy; 04-24-2022, 12:01 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Sielanic Thaumaturgy is nice if you have it, but it feels like one of those cases where a bloodline would be better as a sect/cult/covenant/subculture, using Protean (powers 3-5 of the other path) and Oblivion/Necromancy for most of those effects and more. Although I suppose that there's other significance to those kindred all being part of a Tremere bloodline.
                    Last edited by Spencer from The Hills; 04-24-2022, 10:46 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Thinking on it, the telyavelic tremere are probably distinct enough with altered discipline lineup up and flaw. I'm surprised they didn't just say they used the nature paths, threw in some unique rituals a and called it a day

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
                        Thinking on it, the telyavelic tremere are probably distinct enough with altered discipline lineup up and flaw. I'm surprised they didn't just say they used the nature paths, threw in some unique rituals a and called it a day

                        Probably wanted people to actually play them.


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                        • #13
                          I look at it more like specialist vs generalist. If you're a specialist this probably is of no use and is a hinderance (IE the 'real' necromancer Rhywbeth spoke of) - but if you're a generalist who might not easily tap into that kind of power it might offer you a certain set of skills that would be better than nothing, if you felt a need/interest in such stuff.

                          There's nothing inherently *better* about it than what real necromancers do, it's simply a matter of trade-offs and whether it is an advantage or not will depend on the game and the player/character.

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                          • #14
                            Didn't the Telyavelics slightly predate the launch of Revised Edition? Which is where we first see the assimilation of the Cappadocian, Samedi, and Nagaraja clan disciplines as Necromancy paths? For a while there in 2nd Edition V:tM and the original edition of VDA, spirit magic was pretty much a free-for-all. I do agree that the Path under discussion belongs under Necromancy instead of Thaumaturgy, if it should be allowed at all; I'm just trying to be clear on the context in which this happened.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Reasor View Post
                              Didn't the Telyavelics slightly predate the launch of Revised Edition?
                              I do think so.
                              Interestingly, their Path of the Shadow World is also mentioned (but not show) in V20 Rites of the Blood.
                              I'm OK with the bloodline itself, but I would rather see Necromancy get a wider focus than Thaumaturgy becoming even more all encompassing.

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