Setites and the Wyrm’s Minions

[glamourweaver]

Can anyone recall if any source has explored any crossover relationship between Setites and the minions of the Wyrm?

I would assume that the half of the Clan that align themselves with Apep as the ultimate enemy of Ma’at would be eager collaborators with BSDs, Bane Mummies, and Pentex; but those who see Apep as the weapon by which Osiris poisoned Set would be hostile?

But as eager corrupters of humanity, I’d imagine Setites would make more natural Pentex allies, than 1e slotting the Sabbat into that role (before the Sabbat ideology was fleshed out, and Zettler had to be rewritten as a heretic who the Sabbat Inquisition would destroy if they discovered what he was up to, rather than a representative for a large scale collaboration).

[Black Fox]

First edition material will have the most, as that was when the original creators were working to create a combined mythos, and centrality of the Wyrm and Set's involvement with the Wyrm was at the forefront of this mythos.

The connection between Bane Mummies and the Setites is explained in first edition Mummy. We're told that Set created the seven Bane Mummies and that only he knows the secret to do so, but refuses to make any more because they serve Apophis more than Set thus making them difficult pawns to control. The Bane Mummies receive instructions from Set and his Followers, but this often involve pacts between Set and Apophis. It's not quite clear what this means. My interpretation is that Bane Mummies directly serve Apophis, but there is certain chiminage - mostly paid by the Antedeluvian Set - that allows Set and his clan to command the Bane Mummies in limited ways, but to get greater control of the Bane Mummies would require Set (or possibly other very powerful Setite elders/methusalehs) to make additional chiminage pacts which would be at a high price. So what exactly the senior leadership of the Followers of Sets could ask the Bane Mummies to do is up to the ST, but it should be restrictive and done according to normal chiminage guidelines. I would have "Apophis" here to be an Incarna avatar/servant of the Wyrm. We're told that the Bane Mummies serve Set as well as one of the guises of the Great Wyrm. In the description of the Bane Mummies in that book, we're given some indication what this might be. Anam the Devourer performs assassinations and recovers lost or stolen goods for Set. Setites are suppose to accompany Anam so he goes to a spot, and then get out of his way. This may indicate each Bane Mummy has some kind of "specialty" task they perform for the Set. The clan clearly has a role in sending them out, but they are unreliable.

The first edition Book of the Wyrm is strangely silent about the Setites despite mentioning BSD and PENTEX connections with or views on the Sabbat, Camarilla, and the Giovanni. However, they're general attitude seem to be 1) avoid any conflict with vampires if at all possible, and 2) those vampires who are doing the Wyrm's work should be encouraged and exploited as far as possible, but then discarded. Both the BSDs and PENTEX, despite being allies, view each other as disposable and consider themselves to be the true leaders of the forces of the Wyrm. I magine the Setites would be similar. They would view the BSDs and PENTEX to be valuable pawns, but would be considered each might get overmighty and challenge the "natural" leadership of the Setites. It's still odd that the Setites would not be mentioned at all. My interpretation would be the Setites know of both BSDs and PENTEX, but are purposefully keeping themselves as secret as possible. These are factions that can't be controlled so the Setites keep their distance. They would likely try to manipulate them, but at a safe distance and likely through intermediaries.

The first edition Players Guide quotes a Setite stereotype of the Sabbat that the Setites believe the organization does the work of the Wyrm. But the Sabbat sees the Setites as their enemy. The first Setite clanbook clearly explains that since the Sabbat sees the Setite Antedeluvian as just another antedeluvian to be destroyed, that the sect - though "corrupted" - is dangerous. They are just another pawn to be exploited and discarded. I imagine ultimately, the same attitude would govern any other of the Wyrm's large factions.

[glamourweaver]

I’m clearly going to need to go review the moving target on the Setite philosophy and their relationship to “Apep”. I like VDA20’s take with the opposing Road of Set and Road of Apep, but clearly that dynamic shifts by the modern era.

[AnubisXy]

The goal of the Setites is to overthrow the Aeons and free humanity by ushering in a new era. The Wyrm (and it's minion's) goal is to corrupt everything and destroy existence or at least wreck it beyond repair. Maybe the Wyrm and the Setites are on the same chapter but they're definitely not on the same page.

The Setites likely have more knowledge of the spiritual world and different types of spirits than most other clans. They're enemies with werewolves, they control the last of the Bubasti kin, they're allied to an extet with bane mummies and they've even had a few Abominations as members. It's probable that they consider most Umbral Spirits to be Aeons, manifestations of Aeons or the servants of Aeons so label those as their enemies. Banes, of course, are enemies of most Umbral Spirits so that makes them potential allies but I don't think this is a case of, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" but rather, "the enemy of my enemy is someone I can use."

So I imagine that the official stance on the part of the Setites is that Wyrm spirits are useful pawns against the Aeons, but Wyrm spirits have their own goal and that goal is to destroy and corrupt everything, Set and Setites included. So when Setites use Bane Spirits or create Fomori it would be from the position of slave and slavemaster, not as mutual allies. Likewise any sort of alliance they make with Black Spiral Dancers would be very short lived and entirely focused on completing a singular goal such as wiping out a pack of Silent Striders. They'd probably be more than happy to ally themselves with Pentex, at least at first, but would likely start backing out once they understood the true extent of the Wyrm's corruption in the organization. Then they'd try to keep their interactions purely to business arrangements.

The Setites understand corruption better than almost anyone else and aren't interested in being corrupted and turned into pawns of the Wyrm. They have their own plans. So when dealing with the servants of the Wyrm, they would do so from a position of strength or try and maintain the upper hand. I don't feel that Setites and Wyrm minions would be anything more than allies of temporary convenience at best.

Of course exceptions certainly exist, and no doubt there are Setites who do fall to the Wyrm's promises. But any Follower of Set that falls to the Wyrm's corruption would no doubt get hunted down and killed by the Setites. That's the kind of heresy that they absolutely would not want to see take root.

Note though that's the Setites. In 5th edition you also have the Ministry, and I think they'd probably end up going in a different direction. The Ministry is likely going to be composed of somewhat younger vampires, rather than the ancients who spent lots of time in Egypt and underwent heavy indoctrination into the Followers of Set. Members of the Ministry wouldn't have access to the ancient libraries filled with mystical knowledge that the Followers of Set possess. They probably wouldn't (generally) have the sort of occult and spiritual knowledge to have a deep understanding of the spiritual world, and would also be more likely to engage in behavior that the main sect would consider heretical.

So among the Ministry many members probably wouldn't have as clear of an understanding of Bane spirits and such are would be more likely to enter into pacts or alliances with such entities, Black Spiral Dancers or Pentex than the members of the main clan would be. In fact, in the long term I expect you'll see Wyrm corruption and Wyrm cults becoming a very real danger among the Ministry as various members and groups do whatever they want with little oversight. You saw something similar happen among the Sabbat with demon worship and I expect you'll see that start popping up in the Ministry.

I also expect you'll see the Baali infiltrating the Ministry, teaching Dark Thaumaturgy and pushing for the worship of demons (after all, what's the difference between making a cult to worship Loki or Mars and making a cult to worship Metathiax or Bothothel?) but that's a subject for another thread.

[glamourweaver]

I mean BSDs and Pentex also relate to Fomori as slaves so that isn’t saying anything specific.

i guess the part I’m unclear of is what is the modern Setite ideology with regard to Apep. I know I’m the Dark Ages there was a firm divide between the Road of Set, who see corruption and chaos only as tools against their enemy and are concerned with the resurrection of Set as the enemy of Apep, and the Road of Apep that sees chaos and corruption as ends unto themselves and see the marks of the serpent as a blessing rather than a curse.

[CajunKhan]

I've never liked the idea that the entire spirit world is either a member of the Justice League or the Legion of Doom. Spirits should have very individual interests that the garou only interpret as being on one side or the other because they are religious nutjobs.

[glamourweaver]

I've never liked the idea that the entire spirit world is either a member of the Justice League or the Legion of Doom. Spirits should have very individual interests that the garou only interpret as being on one side or the other because they are religious nutjobs.

I don’t think anyone in this thread has suggested that there aren’t diverse spirits either as individuals or divided into more than two camps. The question here is rooted in the issue that Apep specifically is a cultural lens of the Wyrm in WoD canon.

[MyWifeIsScary]

In LotC, One or two of the Settite weaknesses are basically "werewolves are gonna getcha".


IMO, Pentex works best as a holding company with an understated grip over the big Wyrm Influenced Corporations. Werewolves are very rarely fighting pentex, they're fighting Endron or Magadon or Telus or the IMF and so on and so forth. That there's a holding company causing these companies to do evil? Pfff. There's a lot of shareholders getting these companies to do evil; one more isn't going to do much. The Werewolves don't see a Hydra behind the snakes, they just see a lot of snakes, and the FoS are the same.

[Shadeprowler]

The relationship is murky at best
They are the Children of Rebelion, enemies of the Law and Order of Ma'at....
Since time began, Apophis has been around, defiling and destroying the tenets of Ma'at too!
On the other hand Theophidian myths tell how Set finally managed to kill Apophis after his banishment and ate its heart, gaining its powers for himself, showing the ambition of the Antediluvian to merely use the powers of Apophis to destroy his hated enemy Osiris.Other Typhonists, among them luminaries like Hesha Ruhadze, revere the serpent Apep as the master of Set, to whom they are bound through their service to the Antediluvian, Yet with the arrival of the Sixth Maelstrom, the Bane Mummies have seceded from the Followers of Set and both sides have begun to scheme against each other extensively.
The Amenti believe that Apophis rests beneath the Underworld, and that Great Maelstroms are the result of the Great Serpent trying to rise from beneath the Well of the Void. The end of the world will come when Apophis manages to rise through Oblivion to reach the world of flesh.
But Rage Across: Egypt tells us, Apophis is trapped in a pyramid in Egypt, searching a way to be free
The best is to say, the Followers of Set and the minions of the Wyrm/Apophis are not friends, nor allies, but sometimes their goal is the same and perfectly willing to betray each other

[Reasor]

You have at least two competing narratives within the myths that the Setites tell themselves.

In the Typhonist narrative, the Setites are and always have been meant to serve Oblivion in the form of the serpent, Typhon. The way they tell the story, Set was Typhon's champion. The Bane Mummies were loosely allied with the Typhonist camp, although they've gone their own way since the Sixth Maelstrom - possibly hinting that the dead Set was still active from the Underworld until the Maelstrom cut his childer off from being able to leverage his influence over the Banes.

In a chronicle with enough crossover that the Wyrm exists, the Typhonists are pretty easy to peg as a Wyrm cult by another name.

The relatively more modern Theophidian narrative is one observed by a Gnostic sect within the clan. In this telling, Set defeated Typhon to gain its magic, and the Setites' true purpose is to liberate the universe from Stasis, using corruption as a means to that end. The Ministry can be considered a Theophidian project.

One could speculate that the reason why the Typhonists permit the Theophidians' continued existence instead of going all Ur-Shulgi and running a purge is that they see the Theophidians as fighting to weaken the Weaver, who keeps the Wyrm in check, unwittingly serving Oblivion as useful idiots.

(From a Doylist perspective, the Typhonians reflect an earlier version of the Setites; the introduction of the Theophidians' Gnostic mythology dates to "Clanbook: Followers of Set Revised," and can be considered a part of Revised Edition's move away from supporting crossovers in metaplot.)

Either camp might rationalize working with other Wyrm servants for a time, but the thing about Wyrm servants is that they turn on each other in the end anyways, just as the Wyrm turns on itself. Endron's drilling ironically threatens an ancient temple after First Teams help the Setites chase the Silent Striders away from it. Those Magadon opiates that the Ministry was pushing on the streets kills addicts too quickly and business dries up. Any such alliances would be fleeting, small in scale, and used as object lessons that aren't repeated, in my opinion.

[glamourweaver]

The relationship is murky at best
They are the Children of Rebelion, enemies of the Law and Order of Ma'at....

no, but do you want to know what’s really frustrating here? Mesu Betshet (Children of Rebellion) are the minions/brood of Apep/Apophis in Egyptian myth.

[Reasor]

I don't find it all surprising that the Setites would take the name of those serpents, adopting them as inspirational figures.

To add to the chaos, modern scholars trace the insertion of Apep/Apophis into Egyptian myth to some time during the dark age of the First Intermediate Period, which is to say after the decline of the 6th Dynasty.

The Sphinx and the Pyramid of Cheops are older than that! Maybe the vampires inspired the myth, instead of the other way around...

[MyWifeIsScary]

As powerful as BSD would be as allies, and the same goes for Formor and other wyrmy abominations, A FoS's lifespan is going to be significantly shorter hanging around them: if not betrayal, you'll attract Gaian garou.

IMO 90% of a FoS's close interaction with other Wyrm fellows is in business; perhaps someone got in bed with the Settite to become CEO, or perhaps the Settite took in a business owner looking for debauchery. As a vampire, however, most interaction is going to default to distant: intermediaries, long term arrangements, blackmail..

[monteparnas]

i guess the part I’m unclear of is what is the modern Setite ideology with regard to Apep. I know I’m the Dark Ages there was a firm divide between the Road of Set, who see corruption and chaos only as tools against their enemy and are concerned with the resurrection of Set as the enemy of Apep, and the Road of Apep that sees chaos and corruption as ends unto themselves and see the marks of the serpent as a blessing rather than a curse.

In modern nights it is mostly the same, just more blurred.