Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ravnos Antediluvian and Week of Nightmares

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ravnos Antediluvian and Week of Nightmares

    Depending on the edition, the point of view on these events varies. What was Week of Nightmares in your canon? How did it happen? Was it Ravnos Antediluvian, Ravana or someone else?

  • #2
    Personally, I had the week of nightmares essentially be a big event that amounted to Ravnos signalling to the other Antedeluvians that they were sitting this gehenna out.

    The Ante's don't know where everyone is(and they aren't going to tell their rivals either) so the entire thing was big and obvious to make sure anything with even a small amount of supernatural awareness would notice(have to make sure the ones in Torpor got the message). Ravnos sent out an illusionary construct set at the absolute limit a methusela could achieve, sent it out to piss off some randoms and "die" in some big fight, and killed off any of their descendants that weren't under their direct control.

    Any elder old enough to be worth calling an elder knows that no vampire worth their ashes would die in such a public and stupid fashion, but the methusela above them, who are "in the know", have given the clans a collective "Don't worry about it". So everyone is just happy to perpetuate the lie that the ravnos Ante is dead and start carving up the clan's holdings for themselves.
    Last edited by Prometheas; 05-08-2022, 10:17 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      I have always seen the Ravnos as a horrible attempt to transplant Kender Illusionists from D&D into the WoD.

      As such I alternate between the clan never existing in the first place or the clan existed but every single surviving clan or bloodline agrees to mark its destruction as an undead holiday.

      Comment


      • #4
        It is unlikely to ever matter in my games, as they are about much lower-level stuff, like sieging cities, conflict between paths of enlightenment, and advancing on paths of enlightenment. But my headcanon, for what little its worth, is the Ravnos decided to mimic Malkav and become a being of pure illusion, which required him to abandon his physical body. His efforts nearly failed, destroying most of the clan he needs to spread his mental essence around the world. But ultimately he DID succeed, and manifests as an urge to spread around the world so strong that it literally burns his clan if they don't obey by traveling constantly.

        It's similar to my headcanon for Ventrue, who is now living Dominate.

        Comment


        • #5
          When I use the Week of Nightmares, its not Zapatashura usually
          Not a Ravnos Antediluvian either
          I tend to use the line as an "excuse":

          "Psychics, madmen, and anyone even vaguely touched by the supernatural felt on edge or suffered visions and nightmares. The nightmares usually featured the Demon-King Ravana"

          Now, as a big fan of Kindred of the East, I love this angle
          You see, Clanbook: Ravnos Revised details how Zapathasura Embraced five childer: Marizhavashti Kali, a seer; Hazimel the Rakshasa, a shapeshifter; Chandraputra, a military leader; Ravana, and Ramessu, who served as an internal policeman for Zapathasura's war. These five methuselahs are the ancestors of all other Ravnos.
          Ravana betrayed Zapathasura, thrown his lot with demons and abandons his master, but before went missing appeared before his sire, flaunted his dark powers and how he is freed from his curse and tried to tempt him into infernalism.
          Now jump a little in to the KotE lore!
          Yama Kings are very powerful and hold territories in the outer reaches of the Yin and Yang worlds. They are the supreme wardens of Yomi Wan, and largely fallen servants of the August Personage of Jade who, discovering that chi could be extracted from human souls through torture, adopted such techniques to extract that energy. Generally, the only requirement to be a Yama King is to own some real estate in Yomi, the Thousand Hell. While some, such as Tou Mu, are actually corrupt and fallen former judges of the dead, others are merely corrupt spirits in general (Emma-O was originally an Ainu judge of the dead made bitter and twisted by Yamato occupation of his island) and some, like Haha No Fukami and Yen Lo appear to follow their original duties to a greater or lesser extent. Actually tho' not one of the original Yama Kings, Haha no Fukami, the Mother of the Depths, the Empress of Pearls, who is ruling over the Hell of Seven Burning Seas was the primal ocean mother during the First Age, but changed to her current duty at the request of the August Personage of Jade. Perhaps the least corrupt of the Yama Kings, she is the punisher of crimes made against or upon the ocean, as well as evil acts involving the abuse of fire or water.
          The Yama Kings also include beings from other places, such as corrupt mortal sorcerers such as Mikaboshi
          Now among the famous/infamous known Yama Kings, there was Ravana, Yama King of the realm know as Lanka, the Demon City of the Rakshas who was presided over the souls of the violent.
          But things changed and today Lanka is a ruined "dying" hell; the domain of the lord of the Rakshasa, Ravana was assulted and almost destroyed. Ravana has fallen into deeper apathy and depression since his defeat by Hanuman, abandoning the city mostly to its own devices. Hanuman was a Kitsune (or a monkey... tales are a bit blurry)
          Anyhow, after Hanuman danced thrugh Lanka burning it with rightous fire, Ravana lost much of his powerbase... in the eyes of the other Yama Kings, he was out of the game for the Throne of the Demon Emperor. But Ravana wasn't destroyed and had his schemes. Mostly involving nuclear fire and tainted chi...
          Back to the Week of Nightmares!
          In my stories the Yama King was the one who "awoke"/returned, weakened state, forced back to his original undead body and went on a rampage and the three Bodhisattvas arrived, since the Kuei-.jin's first and foremost enemies are not the Ravnos, but the Yama Kings - true, the Ravnos, the indian Tzimisce and the Kuei-jin hate each other with passion, that hate is because the shared territory; the Kuei-jin vs Yama King thing is far more serious.

          This lines nicely with the description in time of thin blood after the nukes:
          "A vaguely human figure staggered toward Tieh Ju through the rain. She guessed it might be male but could not be sure. Flakes of black ash covered the remains of its naked, shriveled body. One arm hung as a stump of tattered meat. Hallucinations of pain radiated from it, like the vibrating, inner light of migraine. It had survived the wrath of three Bodhisattvas and a bath of nuclear fire. Tieh Ju knew that, even weakened as it was, she could not fight it. If she tried, it would replenish its strength on her chi. Although the thing had no eyes, only sockets oozing black blood, it turned to face the pair. Its fanged jaws worked, and it rasped out, "Blood. Feed. Hunger." It spoke Sanskrit, the ancient tongue of India."

          And at the end, the Sun destroyed his body, not only because he was a vampire once, but back in the third (or fourth can't remember) Age the Yama Kings made a little mistake, when summoned several other suns and almost burnt the planet, it needed a shamed celestial dragon, a hero named Yi, who arrowed down the False Suns and in some stories a flood, to make things right
          And after this little incident, the August Personage of Jade added the curse of the Sun to the weekneses of the Kuei-jin, because most of them helped the Yama Kings and punsihed his wayward jailors too...
          Anyhow, these things comes together nicely, Ravana returned, then lost and ened up destroyed; he failed to absorb the chi of thousands murdered in Bangladesh and the tainted nuclear fires power to return to power, to be powerfull Yama King and died.

          When I use Zapathasura, he tricked the world by the ultimate illusion, used Chimerstry and changed reality, used his power to make the world think he had died to be either escape the Jyhad or to be free from the Gods and his task (the story goes, the gods took the soul of the man most grievously wronged by the asuratizayya and gave him new life, making him a monster so that he and his descendants might hunt the asuratizayya. Though many of the gods bestowed him with great gifts to further his cause, not all of them agreed to creating another dark force in the world. Three placed curses upon the man so that he should fear falling into temptation as the siddhittizaya had, and so the man would forever be threatened by the touch of fire and sunlight, and would also know an eternity of physical and spiritual hunger just as the creatures he hunted. Named Zapathasura, or "accursed demon", he was then sent out to drive the infernal hordes from the world.)
          Last edited by Shadeprowler; 05-08-2022, 01:36 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            I’m not a fan of the Cyclical Gehenna concept as it basically takes a whole chunk of the established lore that’s been considered canon for years and says “Psych!” No Father of Darkness, no Last Daughter of Eve… why even call it Gehenna if there’s not going to be a Last City (from which the Gehenna event draws its name) from which the undead will rule the living?

            If you’re going to nuke all that you have a responsibility to replace it with something at least as interesting. Even chalking it up to Millennial Fever and it’s still out there waiting is better than basically declaring all the prophecies were just wrong and it’s really just a larger than normal bunch of old vampires waking up and feasting for a while and then going back to sleep with the bulk of humanity none the wiser.

            The Ravnos Antediluvian’s rise and fall works perfectly in the concept of a coming End of Days where even some of the most powerful entities on the planet aren’t safe from what’s coming. Personally, I use it as what Terminator 2 became to the franchise… Judgement Day got postponed, but it’s still going to come. Ravnos is dead, the Clan is shattered (though there’s been 20 years for the survivors to rebuild their numbers somewhat).

            But then I actually LIKE the default lore from the Book of Nod.

            Comment


            • #7
              I've discussed this a bit before, but I tend to stick with the Ravnos Antediluvian being slain during the Week of Nightmares, both because it's the "canon" answer and I like to stick with the canon when possible, when it's not openly contradictory or intentionally left undecided, and because I prefer the Antediluvians to be "just" super-powered Vampires rather than automatically being transcendent beings or cosmic powers. Having one of the Antediluvians be destroyed fits that conception of their abilities; immensely powerful, but not omnipotent or omniscient.

              I've never really given a ton of thought to settling the "why" of the Week of Nightmares, why Zapathasura went on an indiscriminate rampage, though I have idly considered some possible explanations. It might be that Zapathasura became a Wight. Or maybe they were supernaturally provoked by infernal magic; maybe Ravana wanted revenge, or to get their more powerful sire out of their way? But while I am very open to the alternate interpretation that Zapathasura used Chimerstry to fake their Final Death, it's not the route I prefer personally.

              On the subject of Gehenna as singular Armageddon versus Destructive Cycle, I have found a way to split the difference that I rather like. Basically, there is a Gehenna Cycle, but that Cycle is about to collide with the more outright apocalyptic events of other WoD gamelines: the Apocalypse from Werewolf, the coming of the Sixth Age and the Demon Emperor from KotE, etc. So while there have been a handful of Gehenna events throughout the history of the Kindred, THIS Gehenna IS going to be downright apocalyptic, and will probably be something of a shock for the Methuselahs like Mithras who have come to see Gehenna as periodic disturbance that can be weathered without too much concern. Mind you, I haven't put a lot of thought into previous Gehenna events in terms of in-game historical events and where they might fit in the timeline.

              Comment


              • #8
                The Time of Thin Blood book suggests that the torpid Antediluvians can feel and be stirred to awakening by the deaths of their progeny. This was the impetus for putting the destruction of the Ravnos in this particular book; here's this Antediluvian waking up because its clan has suffered massive casualties fighting the Kuei-Jin and others in and near India, and the incident should serve as an example of what the elders of the Camarilla and Sabbat are going to foolishly bring about with their wars against one another and their pogroms against the Thin-Blooded.

                I love the creativity of the other answers given in this thread. Ravana being both an Antediluvian and a Yama King is *GOLD*, and I especially love the idea of his earthly rampage coinciding with a defeat by his rivals in the Hells. It's possible that his losses in Yomi Wan and the losses of his vampiric children to other evils could have a mystical cause-and-effect relationship.

                On the Gehenna Cycle, I have always loved how the Great Wheel turns up in so many games that it's the one thing that virtually every spiritually aware monster agrees on. If I were the developer for this or a future edition of White Wolf's properties, life at the dawn of the Sixth Age would be my pitch. The world gets worse because evil is in ascendance. What happens next?
                Last edited by Reasor; 05-08-2022, 05:35 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  If I decide to use the Week of Nightmares it goes something like this;
                  "It's 10:35 on a Monday morning in Bangladesh on the 28th of June, 1999, and suddenly an ancient horror awakens. Over the course of the week millions die (mortal and supernatural alike), clan Ravnos goes extinct, a nuke is dropped to no effect, but after further struggle finally the thing is killed. In the moment it dies, it is 10:35 in Bangladesh on a Monday morning on the 28th of June, 1999. You and everyone else remembers the carnage, many remember dying, but as far as the universe itself is concerned sweet fuck all just happened. Not even a second has passed since the Week of Nightmares began. For regular mortals, the events seem to fade from memory, resurfacing only in their night terrors. Only in the Dreaming and the High Umbra (and on the psyche of all Ravnos and everyone else who died fighting said ancient horror) has any lasting effect been wrought. Oh, and believers of Gehenna insist it was the Ravnos Antediluvian are going absolutely batshit with religious fervor, that too."

                  I'd keep Gehenna and the Antediluvians a permanently unsolved mystery. The threat of them is more fun and versatile than the introduction.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Garou, the Technocracy, Tradition Mages, and other things from like twelve WoD splatbooks collectively killed the Ravnos Antediluvian, which drove the Ravnos into a fit of madness, from which ALL of them died. Not "a couple dozen" not "almost" all of them.

                    Every last one.

                    Why?

                    Because I *hate* the Ravnos.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think the main problem with cyclical Gehenna is that, as presently written it occurs too often to align itself with the turning of the Great Wheel from other splats, but not often enough to really be able to prove a pattern within recorded history.

                      It’d be one thing if, say, the last Gehenna coincided with the fall of an Atlantis which was as advanced or moreso than the present day but collapsed literally back to the Stone Age so there’s literally no record of it beyond what the ancient vampires told their progeny. There you could tie it to the Great Wheel’s turning and the Flood basically wiped out all evidence of vampires before Caine.

                      But every 3200 years has the distinct problem of being long enough that only one past one could have even occurred within recorded history… back during the Late Bronze Age Collapse. One previous instance when the entire population of vampires might have only been about a thousand total and many of the Antes were known to be active anyway is hard to make into a plausible case for it being some endless cycle… particularly when the time before that would have been solidly in the Second City period (pre-dynastic Egypt) and the one before that would be roughly the time of the oldest human cities (barring any that might have been flooded out during the 100m rise in sea levels at the end of the last Ice Age c. 14k years ago that is probably where the worldwide flood myth passed down via oral histories came from).

                      It just feels like something of a bad retcon where they want some elements of doomsday without either having it be THE end or changing it so much it’s no longer recognizable (ex. making the elders eating the young happen every 1000 years so it’s happened 5-6 times before in recorded history would establish the pattern well, but completely uproot the established history). Instead it ends up as this wishy-washy “might have happened once before in recorded history” so it’s past happenstance and into coincidence, but it’ll be AD 5200 before we find out if it’s actually a pattern.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Rhywbeth View Post
                        If I decide to use the Week of Nightmares it goes something like this;
                        "It's 10:35 on a Monday morning in Bangladesh on the 28th of June, 1999, and suddenly an ancient horror awakens. Over the course of the week millions die (mortal and supernatural alike), clan Ravnos goes extinct, a nuke is dropped to no effect, but after further struggle finally the thing is killed. In the moment it dies, it is 10:35 in Bangladesh on a Monday morning on the 28th of June, 1999. You and everyone else remembers the carnage, many remember dying, but as far as the universe itself is concerned sweet fuck all just happened. Not even a second has passed since the Week of Nightmares began. For regular mortals, the events seem to fade from memory, resurfacing only in their night terrors. Only in the Dreaming and the High Umbra (and on the psyche of all Ravnos and everyone else who died fighting said ancient horror) has any lasting effect been wrought. Oh, and believers of Gehenna insist it was the Ravnos Antediluvian are going absolutely batshit with religious fervor, that too."

                        I'd keep Gehenna and the Antediluvians a permanently unsolved mystery. The threat of them is more fun and versatile than the introduction.
                        Nice headcanon! It's neat

                        My personal headcanon is... Well, things went basically as canon said.

                        Antediluvian is dead, and died in such blunt way because he went into Frenzy at the worst moment, and so failed to use its head to save itself with Chimerstry.
                        Or maybe not. But for as much as the world is concerned it is dead.
                        Mind that in my own headcanon Lasombra was successfully slain too, so I probably have this kind of preference as a rule of thumb.

                        The Ravnos clan almost got wiped out, but in my headcanon a few more of two dozens survived. Like fifty vampires or so.
                        Especially in the Sabbat due to their packs helping them (this one is canon btw)

                        So they amount as much vampires as some minor bloodlines (my headcanon of course).
                        But it's been twenty years and they wandered a lot, and they embraced a lot. So maybe by 2022 they tripled their numbers.
                        But probably all anarchs tripled their numbers in the last 20 years (still my headcanon) so it's not that much exceptional

                        So they are sorta like the opposite of Harbingers of Skulls, instead of a bloodline of elders they are currently a bloodline of neonates mostly (with some exceptions like Durga Syn).

                        Wether the Ravnos or the Salubri or some other former clan or bloodline will gain the "title" of 13th clan is yet to be seen (but vampires embraced in the modern days don't care much about such things)

                        Finally, in my headcanon a few 4th or 5th generation Ravnos survived (just like a few low generation Cappadocians did). It's just that I have to come up with some interesting ones.

                        Btw I also dropped completely the old clan weakness.
                        Personally I think it was one of the more interesting ones, but there was indeed too much controversial baggage behind it.
                        The original clan weakness from first edition wasn't that bad, but it was controversial on its own way (as in "hey you know why those people associated with the clan were persecuted? it was due to a curse!")
                        In my headcanon they always had the V5 weakness, but before the Week of Nightmares it dealt aggravated damage to willpower instead of fire damage


                        101 simple plot ideas for VtM

                        "Ever since the Followers of Set rebranded themselves as The Ministry, I can barely keep a straight face around them." - Ramona

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by trueann View Post
                          Depending on the edition, the point of view on these events varies. What was Week of Nightmares in your canon? How did it happen? Was it Ravnos Antediluvian, Ravana or someone else?
                          Originally posted by trueann View Post
                          Depending on the edition, the point of view on these events varies. What was Week of Nightmares in your canon? How did it happen? Was it Ravnos Antediluvian, Ravana or someone else?
                          The canon answer is the many deaths of its childer and the mass embraces to replenish the clan’s ranks caused the Ravnos antediluvian to wake up hungry and weakened. He was intercepted by three bodhisattavas and they fought for a week as the bodhisattavas summoned a cloud of darkness to shield themselves from the sun. As they fought the out of control chimestry from Ravnos caused nightmares and dreams to become real and plague the whole planet. This alerted several supernatural factions, including the Technocracy. Once they identified the source of the problem technocrats enacted their ragnarock protocols. They unleashed spirit nukes on the combatants vaporizing a couple of bodhisattavas then, as the cloud of darkness was dispersed, they used a giant solar mirror to roast Ravnos for good. With Ravnos’ death it’s whole bloodline went mad and almost all of them enters frenzy and we’re destroyed.

                          P.S.

                          Fun fact: the authors debated which clan to destroy and the other one that was considered were the Malkavians. In the end they were considered to popular to destroy so the Ravnos were chosen instead…

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
                            I think the main problem with cyclical Gehenna is that, as presently written it occurs too often to align itself with the turning of the Great Wheel from other splats, but not often enough to really be able to prove a pattern within recorded history.

                            It’d be one thing if, say, the last Gehenna coincided with the fall of an Atlantis which was as advanced or moreso than the present day but collapsed literally back to the Stone Age so there’s literally no record of it beyond what the ancient vampires told their progeny. There you could tie it to the Great Wheel’s turning and the Flood basically wiped out all evidence of vampires before Caine.

                            But every 3200 years has the distinct problem of being long enough that only one past one could have even occurred within recorded history… back during the Late Bronze Age Collapse. One previous instance when the entire population of vampires might have only been about a thousand total and many of the Antes were known to be active anyway is hard to make into a plausible case for it being some endless cycle… particularly when the time before that would have been solidly in the Second City period (pre-dynastic Egypt) and the one before that would be roughly the time of the oldest human cities (barring any that might have been flooded out during the 100m rise in sea levels at the end of the last Ice Age c. 14k years ago that is probably where the worldwide flood myth passed down via oral histories came from).

                            It just feels like something of a bad retcon where they want some elements of doomsday without either having it be THE end or changing it so much it’s no longer recognizable (ex. making the elders eating the young happen every 1000 years so it’s happened 5-6 times before in recorded history would establish the pattern well, but completely uproot the established history). Instead it ends up as this wishy-washy “might have happened once before in recorded history” so it’s past happenstance and into coincidence, but it’ll be AD 5200 before we find out if it’s actually a pattern.
                            I actually like the idea of not having the Gehenna cycle line up with the Ages of the Great Wheel, because it feels a little too neat to have *everything* fit under one teleological tent. But I do agree with your criticism of the Gehenna cycle, where it's either a "cycle" that has only had enough time to spin two or three times in the entire span of human history, or you have a really hard time figuring out where to fit the extra Gehenna events into the established history of the setting; it's one of the main reasons I haven't really been able to decide how I want to handle Gehenna in my personal headcanon.

                            Is there a particular source that gives 3200 years as the timespan of the Gehenna cycle? I've seen that particular number pop up a few times now, not sure where it comes from, would like to know


                            Originally posted by Ravnos View Post
                            Finally, in my headcanon a few 4th or 5th generation Ravnos survived (just like a few low generation Cappadocians did). It's just that I have to come up with some interesting ones.
                            Since I quite like Beckett's Jyhad Diary, I also tend to roll with the idea that a handful of Zapathasura's childer who make up the core leadership of the traditional Ravnos in India managed to survive the rampage, so the Ravnos are greatly diminished but not as close to the brink of extinction as they were originally portrayed post-WoN.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I never used the Week of Nightmares in my chronicles because I have no need for it. Unless I was going to run a chronicle where Gehenna happens (or at least the first phase of it starts), I have no reason for it. And if I did run such a chronicle, I would take very little of the Revised metaplot to help me run it. It is just not to my taste.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X