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  • trueann
    started a topic Ravnos Antediluvian and Week of Nightmares

    Ravnos Antediluvian and Week of Nightmares

    Depending on the edition, the point of view on these events varies. What was Week of Nightmares in your canon? How did it happen? Was it Ravnos Antediluvian, Ravana or someone else?

  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    It's bullshit. So no. Metaplot existed to sell books and to get ignored.

    1: I actually like the Ravnos, it doesn't take much to decouple them from the racist stupidity they've been burdened with, so I'm not gonna shaft them on account of some people lacking imagination.
    2: I like the idea that the apocalypse is around the corner. Because it's always around the corner. Even in the earliest of recorded histories, humanity has thought the world would end soon, that "soon" has carried on for thousands of years. Cyclical gehenna can get fucked doubly. The end is nigh. The end is always nigh.
    3: Metaplot takes away agency from storytellers who know better and who have a direct line to their games and their players. It serves as nothing more than a way to get certain types of people to buy more books. But as I'm lucky enough to get into WoD late and look at it in retrospect, I can see it for what it is: Worse than unnecessary, actively harmful to most player's enjoyment.

    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
    I take it up to 11 and have a giant kung-fu battle on the moon.
    I'm sure if I used it, I'd do something like this.
    And the moon would be destroyed to keep the giant ape from wrecking havoc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Baaldam
    replied
    Not really. Always seemed like a confusing mess of an event that the more you read upon, the less it makes any sense whatsoever to make happen in one's table. So many meta-based assumptions stacked together glued by "just roll with it" that makes one head hurts.....

    Also, not like i care so much about the ups & downs of Ravnos canon portrayal - or the representation of insanity in setting through Malkavians is all that better/more sensitive - anyway.

    To be clear, it's not that i'm against big metaplot events as explanation for setting changes & retcons or their use as a springboard for plotlines - damn, i once retooled "Grandmother's House" to make into an adventure with actual stakes and player agency instead of just godmode NPC on godmode NPC combat vignettes.

    But the background and fluff of the Week of Nightmares never made much of a positive impression on me. For all of V5's faults, Gehenna Crusade works much better as a "game-changer event in the backdrop", imho.


    Also, far more entertaining to have Cabbie/Caine/Ankla Hotep shenanigans in Berlin, LA , Rio, Graceland or the city big or small of your preference in the street/domain level.
    Last edited by Baaldam; 05-13-2022, 10:58 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lysander
    replied
    I just make references to it from time to time in our game. Our characters know that something bad happened to the Ravnos and heard contradictory reports that something wiped out the most potent members of the clan.

    Leave a comment:


  • Devidramoth
    replied
    For me the week of Nightmares is really useful. The shift in the jyhad as most street level kindred know it is a direct result in a large part of the Sabbat Leadership, who thought that their apocalypse-talk was mostly a method of indoctrination and influence, finding out, "Holy shit those things are real? And I'm expected to lead a bunch of shovelheads to fight them?"

    And all kindred see what happens if you kill a clan founder or ancient antediluvian, that is to say that the borrowed blood tries to call back to itself in a frenzy of diablerie. This has two effects first it shows that as a Kindred your life is borrowed from those you inherit it from and it will follow their will. And second, it shows the lie of those who have claimed to have killed their founders, as now it is in living memory of what the death throes of an ancient feel like to their progeny even a dozen generations removed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Leandro16
    replied
    In my games I use Ravnos as a means to say that antidiluvians are monsters in terms of brute power but not unbeatable and even them can fail against the beast.

    In the case of Ravnos he had success in evolving into a demonic being a king of the "Rakasha" but in the process he was consumed by his role and become a destructive force without free will, a wight. He summoned just summoned an army of lesser demons and called for his progeny to aid him in his conquest of India and later the world.

    Thing is his progeny thought what a dick! He wants to make earth into hell and I happen to live there so almost nobody came and many fought against his creator openly or as saboteurs.

    The sabbat fought during the night and the technocracy during the day. Eventually ravnos was hit by an artillery strike and his physical body killed. Had he used strategy he may have succed in taking over india but being a wight he was not able to strategize properly.

    Leave a comment:


  • AnubisXy
    replied
    I take it up to 11 and have a giant kung-fu battle on the moon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    I never used the Week of Nightmares in my chronicles because I have no need for it. Unless I was going to run a chronicle where Gehenna happens (or at least the first phase of it starts), I have no reason for it. And if I did run such a chronicle, I would take very little of the Revised metaplot to help me run it. It is just not to my taste.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kharnov
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
    I think the main problem with cyclical Gehenna is that, as presently written it occurs too often to align itself with the turning of the Great Wheel from other splats, but not often enough to really be able to prove a pattern within recorded history.

    It’d be one thing if, say, the last Gehenna coincided with the fall of an Atlantis which was as advanced or moreso than the present day but collapsed literally back to the Stone Age so there’s literally no record of it beyond what the ancient vampires told their progeny. There you could tie it to the Great Wheel’s turning and the Flood basically wiped out all evidence of vampires before Caine.

    But every 3200 years has the distinct problem of being long enough that only one past one could have even occurred within recorded history… back during the Late Bronze Age Collapse. One previous instance when the entire population of vampires might have only been about a thousand total and many of the Antes were known to be active anyway is hard to make into a plausible case for it being some endless cycle… particularly when the time before that would have been solidly in the Second City period (pre-dynastic Egypt) and the one before that would be roughly the time of the oldest human cities (barring any that might have been flooded out during the 100m rise in sea levels at the end of the last Ice Age c. 14k years ago that is probably where the worldwide flood myth passed down via oral histories came from).

    It just feels like something of a bad retcon where they want some elements of doomsday without either having it be THE end or changing it so much it’s no longer recognizable (ex. making the elders eating the young happen every 1000 years so it’s happened 5-6 times before in recorded history would establish the pattern well, but completely uproot the established history). Instead it ends up as this wishy-washy “might have happened once before in recorded history” so it’s past happenstance and into coincidence, but it’ll be AD 5200 before we find out if it’s actually a pattern.
    I actually like the idea of not having the Gehenna cycle line up with the Ages of the Great Wheel, because it feels a little too neat to have *everything* fit under one teleological tent. But I do agree with your criticism of the Gehenna cycle, where it's either a "cycle" that has only had enough time to spin two or three times in the entire span of human history, or you have a really hard time figuring out where to fit the extra Gehenna events into the established history of the setting; it's one of the main reasons I haven't really been able to decide how I want to handle Gehenna in my personal headcanon.

    Is there a particular source that gives 3200 years as the timespan of the Gehenna cycle? I've seen that particular number pop up a few times now, not sure where it comes from, would like to know


    Originally posted by Ravnos View Post
    Finally, in my headcanon a few 4th or 5th generation Ravnos survived (just like a few low generation Cappadocians did). It's just that I have to come up with some interesting ones.
    Since I quite like Beckett's Jyhad Diary, I also tend to roll with the idea that a handful of Zapathasura's childer who make up the core leadership of the traditional Ravnos in India managed to survive the rampage, so the Ravnos are greatly diminished but not as close to the brink of extinction as they were originally portrayed post-WoN.

    Leave a comment:


  • Haquim
    replied
    Originally posted by trueann View Post
    Depending on the edition, the point of view on these events varies. What was Week of Nightmares in your canon? How did it happen? Was it Ravnos Antediluvian, Ravana or someone else?
    Originally posted by trueann View Post
    Depending on the edition, the point of view on these events varies. What was Week of Nightmares in your canon? How did it happen? Was it Ravnos Antediluvian, Ravana or someone else?
    The canon answer is the many deaths of its childer and the mass embraces to replenish the clan’s ranks caused the Ravnos antediluvian to wake up hungry and weakened. He was intercepted by three bodhisattavas and they fought for a week as the bodhisattavas summoned a cloud of darkness to shield themselves from the sun. As they fought the out of control chimestry from Ravnos caused nightmares and dreams to become real and plague the whole planet. This alerted several supernatural factions, including the Technocracy. Once they identified the source of the problem technocrats enacted their ragnarock protocols. They unleashed spirit nukes on the combatants vaporizing a couple of bodhisattavas then, as the cloud of darkness was dispersed, they used a giant solar mirror to roast Ravnos for good. With Ravnos’ death it’s whole bloodline went mad and almost all of them enters frenzy and we’re destroyed.

    P.S.

    Fun fact: the authors debated which clan to destroy and the other one that was considered were the Malkavians. In the end they were considered to popular to destroy so the Ravnos were chosen instead…

    Leave a comment:


  • Ravnos
    replied
    Originally posted by Rhywbeth View Post
    If I decide to use the Week of Nightmares it goes something like this;
    "It's 10:35 on a Monday morning in Bangladesh on the 28th of June, 1999, and suddenly an ancient horror awakens. Over the course of the week millions die (mortal and supernatural alike), clan Ravnos goes extinct, a nuke is dropped to no effect, but after further struggle finally the thing is killed. In the moment it dies, it is 10:35 in Bangladesh on a Monday morning on the 28th of June, 1999. You and everyone else remembers the carnage, many remember dying, but as far as the universe itself is concerned sweet fuck all just happened. Not even a second has passed since the Week of Nightmares began. For regular mortals, the events seem to fade from memory, resurfacing only in their night terrors. Only in the Dreaming and the High Umbra (and on the psyche of all Ravnos and everyone else who died fighting said ancient horror) has any lasting effect been wrought. Oh, and believers of Gehenna insist it was the Ravnos Antediluvian are going absolutely batshit with religious fervor, that too."

    I'd keep Gehenna and the Antediluvians a permanently unsolved mystery. The threat of them is more fun and versatile than the introduction.
    Nice headcanon! It's neat

    My personal headcanon is... Well, things went basically as canon said.

    Antediluvian is dead, and died in such blunt way because he went into Frenzy at the worst moment, and so failed to use its head to save itself with Chimerstry.
    Or maybe not. But for as much as the world is concerned it is dead.
    Mind that in my own headcanon Lasombra was successfully slain too, so I probably have this kind of preference as a rule of thumb.

    The Ravnos clan almost got wiped out, but in my headcanon a few more of two dozens survived. Like fifty vampires or so.
    Especially in the Sabbat due to their packs helping them (this one is canon btw)

    So they amount as much vampires as some minor bloodlines (my headcanon of course).
    But it's been twenty years and they wandered a lot, and they embraced a lot. So maybe by 2022 they tripled their numbers.
    But probably all anarchs tripled their numbers in the last 20 years (still my headcanon) so it's not that much exceptional

    So they are sorta like the opposite of Harbingers of Skulls, instead of a bloodline of elders they are currently a bloodline of neonates mostly (with some exceptions like Durga Syn).

    Wether the Ravnos or the Salubri or some other former clan or bloodline will gain the "title" of 13th clan is yet to be seen (but vampires embraced in the modern days don't care much about such things)

    Finally, in my headcanon a few 4th or 5th generation Ravnos survived (just like a few low generation Cappadocians did). It's just that I have to come up with some interesting ones.

    Btw I also dropped completely the old clan weakness.
    Personally I think it was one of the more interesting ones, but there was indeed too much controversial baggage behind it.
    The original clan weakness from first edition wasn't that bad, but it was controversial on its own way (as in "hey you know why those people associated with the clan were persecuted? it was due to a curse!")
    In my headcanon they always had the V5 weakness, but before the Week of Nightmares it dealt aggravated damage to willpower instead of fire damage

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris24601
    replied
    I think the main problem with cyclical Gehenna is that, as presently written it occurs too often to align itself with the turning of the Great Wheel from other splats, but not often enough to really be able to prove a pattern within recorded history.

    It’d be one thing if, say, the last Gehenna coincided with the fall of an Atlantis which was as advanced or moreso than the present day but collapsed literally back to the Stone Age so there’s literally no record of it beyond what the ancient vampires told their progeny. There you could tie it to the Great Wheel’s turning and the Flood basically wiped out all evidence of vampires before Caine.

    But every 3200 years has the distinct problem of being long enough that only one past one could have even occurred within recorded history… back during the Late Bronze Age Collapse. One previous instance when the entire population of vampires might have only been about a thousand total and many of the Antes were known to be active anyway is hard to make into a plausible case for it being some endless cycle… particularly when the time before that would have been solidly in the Second City period (pre-dynastic Egypt) and the one before that would be roughly the time of the oldest human cities (barring any that might have been flooded out during the 100m rise in sea levels at the end of the last Ice Age c. 14k years ago that is probably where the worldwide flood myth passed down via oral histories came from).

    It just feels like something of a bad retcon where they want some elements of doomsday without either having it be THE end or changing it so much it’s no longer recognizable (ex. making the elders eating the young happen every 1000 years so it’s happened 5-6 times before in recorded history would establish the pattern well, but completely uproot the established history). Instead it ends up as this wishy-washy “might have happened once before in recorded history” so it’s past happenstance and into coincidence, but it’ll be AD 5200 before we find out if it’s actually a pattern.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hades
    replied
    Garou, the Technocracy, Tradition Mages, and other things from like twelve WoD splatbooks collectively killed the Ravnos Antediluvian, which drove the Ravnos into a fit of madness, from which ALL of them died. Not "a couple dozen" not "almost" all of them.

    Every last one.

    Why?

    Because I *hate* the Ravnos.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rhywbeth
    replied
    If I decide to use the Week of Nightmares it goes something like this;
    "It's 10:35 on a Monday morning in Bangladesh on the 28th of June, 1999, and suddenly an ancient horror awakens. Over the course of the week millions die (mortal and supernatural alike), clan Ravnos goes extinct, a nuke is dropped to no effect, but after further struggle finally the thing is killed. In the moment it dies, it is 10:35 in Bangladesh on a Monday morning on the 28th of June, 1999. You and everyone else remembers the carnage, many remember dying, but as far as the universe itself is concerned sweet fuck all just happened. Not even a second has passed since the Week of Nightmares began. For regular mortals, the events seem to fade from memory, resurfacing only in their night terrors. Only in the Dreaming and the High Umbra (and on the psyche of all Ravnos and everyone else who died fighting said ancient horror) has any lasting effect been wrought. Oh, and believers of Gehenna insist it was the Ravnos Antediluvian are going absolutely batshit with religious fervor, that too."

    I'd keep Gehenna and the Antediluvians a permanently unsolved mystery. The threat of them is more fun and versatile than the introduction.

    Leave a comment:


  • Reasor
    replied
    The Time of Thin Blood book suggests that the torpid Antediluvians can feel and be stirred to awakening by the deaths of their progeny. This was the impetus for putting the destruction of the Ravnos in this particular book; here's this Antediluvian waking up because its clan has suffered massive casualties fighting the Kuei-Jin and others in and near India, and the incident should serve as an example of what the elders of the Camarilla and Sabbat are going to foolishly bring about with their wars against one another and their pogroms against the Thin-Blooded.

    I love the creativity of the other answers given in this thread. Ravana being both an Antediluvian and a Yama King is *GOLD*, and I especially love the idea of his earthly rampage coinciding with a defeat by his rivals in the Hells. It's possible that his losses in Yomi Wan and the losses of his vampiric children to other evils could have a mystical cause-and-effect relationship.

    On the Gehenna Cycle, I have always loved how the Great Wheel turns up in so many games that it's the one thing that virtually every spiritually aware monster agrees on. If I were the developer for this or a future edition of White Wolf's properties, life at the dawn of the Sixth Age would be my pitch. The world gets worse because evil is in ascendance. What happens next?
    Last edited by Reasor; 05-08-2022, 05:35 PM.

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