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  • Herr Meister
    started a topic Where is Gotzon?

    Where is Gotzon?

    I mean, since I've read the Dark Ages Novels, I don't remember reading anything about him in the setting. Does anybody have any information about him? I've always felt that he was a somewhat mysterious and interesting character. Has anybody here ever used him in your games? If so, what is he like in your games?

  • Reasor
    replied
    He goes by the name Aludian Thex now. It keeps the number of tiresome, godmode author insertion characters from reaching critical mass.

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  • Herr Meister
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
    Where is he?

    Standing right behind you!

    Hahaha good one

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  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Where is he?

    Standing right behind you!

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  • Herr Meister
    replied
    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


    Well, that's the fun of it from my point of view, plenty of room for a ST to expand or develop him as a NPC in its own chronicle or a player to insert Gotzon as a sire, mentor figure or antagonist, depending on the kind of game played and ST approval. He can appear anywhere as an Inconnu monitor, entrenched primogen, freshly out of torpor, secret passenger in the body of some diablerist or anything else one feels like, with little to no worries whatsoever about canon.

    Even his actual power level is up to debate, as pointed out in my comments about him being either enhanced somehow to pull it off or a mere scapegoat covering up for the true performer.


    Extra: while looking into the DA book, i came across another very interesting box.



    Ok, just by description, without the side effect mechanics, that ritual just screams "breaking point" for Road of Heaven followers through and through. The evidence for Gotzon being somehow pressured or dominated into the role of performer, possibly exactly for this reason, by enemies or rivals from within the clan and particularly the Angellis Ater, seems to be mounting, imho.

    This part about the Road I didn't remember, very interesting indeed. On another note, I know we can always develop the characters, and it's good to have room for such a thing, but at the moment I don't really need so much room anymore, I mean I've been ST for more than 2 decades, I always change in a way or another the way characters are described in the scenarios, I just wish Dark Ages was more developed and felt more connected to the modern day scenario. So, all in all, I think both Jürgen and Gotzon could have been more developed and not left so "vague" (at least regarding their future, etc), but I understand that Dark Ages probably won't be a thing in the scenario for a long time.

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  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    Yes, I guess his fate is anyone's guess and it would depend mostly on the ST (as usual). I wish WW could connect such interesting characters they have in the WoD better. Like I said about Jürgen, the same could be said about Gotzon (even though he isn't as "approachable" as Jürgen), they would often be much more interesting "alive" than destroyed and forgotten in the past.

    Well, that's the fun of it from my point of view, plenty of room for a ST to expand or develop him as a NPC in its own chronicle or a player to insert Gotzon as a sire, mentor figure or antagonist, depending on the kind of game played and ST approval. He can appear anywhere as an Inconnu monitor, entrenched primogen, freshly out of torpor, secret passenger in the body of some diablerist or anything else one feels like, with little to no worries whatsoever about canon.

    Even his actual power level is up to debate, as pointed out in my comments about him being either enhanced somehow to pull it off or a mere scapegoat covering up for the true performer.


    Extra: while looking into the DA book, i came across another very interesting box.

    Originally posted by Darkening Sky, pg.100
    The Ritual
    If there are any characters who are Lasombra, they may attempt to obtain information from the Amici Noctis about the ritual that Gotzon will be
    performing. Succeeding at a difficulty 7 Investigation roll will let the character discern which of the Amici Noctis that they meet would have the knowledge
    of Abyss Mysticism that they need to gain vital information on the nature of the coming eclipse. Succeeding at a difficulty 8 Occult roll will elicit detailed information about Gotzon’s ritual, The Cry That Slays The Light. The characters will learn that the eclipse will last exactly one hour, which will allow them to better prepare for their confrontation with the Angellis Ater.

    System: A Cainite wishing to shout The Cry That Slays Light must spend one week in absolute silence. During this time, she spends all waking hours mentally repeating a litany of hatred for the sun and moon and the Creator of light.
    Once the ritual is complete, the vampire’s player rolls Intelligence + Occult (difficulty 8). A botch results in the vampire’s banishment into the Abyss for a century per 1 rolled, during which time the vampire gains at least one derangement and loses all blood, but never falls into the release of torpor. Failure means the caster fails and nothing happens. Success means the vampire hears the whispers of Ahriman proclaiming the syllable that is opposed to all being. The syllable cannot be telepathically extracted or mystically removed. At any time, he may shriek this syllable to turn day into night. For one hour, vampires may walk openly without fear of Rötschreck and are protected from the sun. The syllable then passes from the mystic’s memory unless he casts the ritual once more to rediscover it.

    Side Effect: Upon actually invoking the Cry That Slays Light to blot out the sun, roll the mystic’s Road (difficulty 4). Each success allows the vampire to retain
    one dot of her Road. If this sudden degeneration reduces the vampire’s Road to zero, she rampages under the cover of darkness and kills everything and everyone she can find. When the darkness ends, it subsumes her into its being and her hunger is added to the Abyss.
    Ok, just by description, without the side effect mechanics, that ritual just screams "breaking point" for Road of Heaven followers through and through. The evidence for Gotzon being somehow pressured or dominated into the role of performer, possibly exactly for this reason, by enemies or rivals from within the clan and particularly the Angellis Ater, seems to be mounting, imho.
    Last edited by Baaldam; 05-10-2022, 08:05 PM.

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  • Herr Meister
    replied
    Yes, I guess his fate is anyone's guess and it would depend mostly on the ST (as usual). I wish WW could connect such interesting characters they have in the WoD better. Like I said about Jürgen, the same could be said about Gotzon (even though he isn't as "approachable" as Jürgen), they would often be much more interesting "alive" than destroyed and forgotten in the past.

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  • Baaldam
    replied
    I have yet to give Darknening Sky a full long read, but in that book the idea that Gotzon, a well-known Lasombra Abyss Mystic, is going to perform a ritual that will eclipse the sun, allowing vampires to walk during the day, is something of an open secret - everyone in Iberia knows he's going to do it, the big question is how, how long it will go for and the effects for humanity and the kindred.

    What's both hilarious and sketchy like hell. Doubly so when the book itself mentions in a box about him, that Gotzon is somewhere inside the Holy Roman Empire, far from the Iberian Peninsula...

    In fact reading the "What About Gotzon?" box only makes it clearer, the Eclipse is a fait accompli, an unavoidable event for PCs and NPCs across DA Europe (& beyond?) to explore the colaterals of. Gotzon as the part responsible is there simply to add it a sense of fantastic/magical/supernatural agency to the phenomena that an eclipse on itself would probably not have for contemporary readers.

    Gotzon did it because "natural eclipse = banal, while vampire-made eclipse = awesome", so someone had to it and he was the one picked for the act by committee of Lasombra elders. Or he picked the short straw in the game with Boukhepos, Montano and Aludian Thex, it's a mystery.


    On a more serious note about Gotzon's fate, that's a quite open subject i guess. Being a follower of Via Caelli and Abyss Mysticism both in the past, he might have had many allies, rivals and enemies within the Cainite Heresy, the Angelis Atter and his own clan among others, not to mention the possibility of being targeted by livonian kindred or those associated with pagan holdovers in many places across Europe or bordering upon it.

    And the Church, whose mortal members, specially those associated with the Inquisition or Society of Leopold, could look quite askance and with extreme prejudice into the peculiar rituals and liturgy of the kindred infiltrated within them. The fact he seems to have forsworn the use of Obtenebration would seem to indicate he feels remorse for that act if not for his abyssal studies as a whole and depending on his degree of regret, an act of martyrdom sometime in the late middle ages as the fires of inquisition raged wouldn't be of consideration. This "repentance" of his could also make Gotzon into a major target for diablerie in the part of any abyss mystics or ambitious Lasombra in general that feel different and/or envy his puisance.

    If Gotzon survives the mayhem of the Inquisition and Anarch Revolt both, his spiritual and monastic mindset would make him into something of a natural candidate for the Inconnu, imho. One who might be occasionally tempted out of isolation into a more (indirectly) pro-active role of Monitor and mentor/patron for any somewhat moral kindred opposing any Abyss Mystic or Angelis Atter remnants. What could make him an awesome monkeywrench to throw in storylines involving Monçada, Lucita or both.
    Last edited by Baaldam; 05-10-2022, 06:06 PM.

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  • Herr Meister
    replied
    Originally posted by Banu_Saulot View Post
    So, Gotzon was disappointed with Jurgen's choice of going the secular Path of Kings and ruleship, instead of that of a more spiritual and god-involved one.
    By the end of the Dark Ages novel, Gotzon was hunting pagans and devil-worshipers, and in trying to bend Jurgen he ended up alienating and making his intended protegee much firmer in his own path. And Jurgen didn't part with Gotzon amicably, saying he would kill him if he saw him again. So that was the end of that, Gotzon leaving Jurgen in Livonia I think.

    He still maintained his vow not to use his Obtenetration powers, which he contains, but is very intense and follows him, making his very presence something very uncomfortable. I still don't reemember the reason as to why he made that Eclipse (that is shown in Darkening Sky), I read long ago, but I saw it as either something that helped or hindered his own Clan and Antediluvian, or a plan to draw out demons and cultists of great power and threat for him to hunt. It was no little matter this ritual, and in some ways it could even be seen as the first sign of Gehenna according to the Book of Nod.

    But yeah, I think canon-wise we don't know. I ruled in my game-setting that he keeps own being a mysterious figure in the footnotes of history, that occasionally appears in suspicious moments. And hell, I think he would be super pro-Inquisition and the Burning Times, and if he found "sympathetic" or negotiating inquisitor and witch-hunters, he would give them all he can in terms of info, even if he wouldn't protect them or act by them really.

    Also, since in my canon, Hardestadt made body-doubles of himself (and one of them would be Jurgen), allowing him to be in multiple places at the same time, die but not really and "Rule from the Grave", I think Gotzon would kind of sniff some of it. He probably wouldn't meddle with his Clan's politics and is very likely he would hate every damn Sabbat there is. So maybe an Autarkis with some Camarilla and Lasombra "antitribu" (pre-V5 concept at least) links, but mostly alone.

    I see him getting, one time or another, into the whole Kupala mess, especially if he came to the conclusion that the demon is the source of the Sabbat's power. Or maybe he would be more into the Giovanni's Chronicles axis, hunting down those that would even try to attain godhood.

    I wish I knew how to quote two different posts, as both you Banu_Saulot and Baaldam gave me very interesting thoughts. Also, I REALLY wish they explained in Darkening Sky, why Gotzon chose to make the Eclipse. I feel like he could be much more developed. By the way, the Ventrue Dark Ages Novel is probably the best (although the Cappadocian one is certainly a good contender), I think Jürgen was a very well-developed character and I grew fond of him. It's a pity both Jürgen and Gotzon didn't get much development afterwards, not even a character sheet (although, to be honest, WW loves to not give stats to its famous characters and give a ton of headache to the ST who sometimes needs to give them stats, but at the same time it's probably better than give terrible and underwhelming stats like they gave to Mithras, for instance)
    This idea of Hardestadt making doubles of himself seems also very interesting (it's certainly better than believing the story that Theo Bell, a mere 9th generation cainite with an under impressive character sheet, was able to kill Hardestadt with a shotgun lol...).
    Last edited by Herr Meister; 05-10-2022, 05:59 PM.

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  • Banu_Saulot
    replied
    So, Gotzon was disappointed with Jurgen's choice of going the secular Path of Kings and ruleship, instead of that of a more spiritual and god-involved one.
    By the end of the Dark Ages novel, Gotzon was hunting pagans and devil-worshipers, and in trying to bend Jurgen he ended up alienating and making his intended protegee much firmer in his own path. And Jurgen didn't part with Gotzon amicably, saying he would kill him if he saw him again. So that was the end of that, Gotzon leaving Jurgen in Livonia I think.

    He still maintained his vow not to use his Obtenetration powers, which he contains, but is very intense and follows him, making his very presence something very uncomfortable. I still don't reemember the reason as to why he made that Eclipse (that is shown in Darkening Sky), I read long ago, but I saw it as either something that helped or hindered his own Clan and Antediluvian, or a plan to draw out demons and cultists of great power and threat for him to hunt. It was no little matter this ritual, and in some ways it could even be seen as the first sign of Gehenna according to the Book of Nod.

    But yeah, I think canon-wise we don't know. I ruled in my game-setting that he keeps own being a mysterious figure in the footnotes of history, that occasionally appears in suspicious moments. And hell, I think he would be super pro-Inquisition and the Burning Times, and if he found "sympathetic" or negotiating inquisitor and witch-hunters, he would give them all he can in terms of info, even if he wouldn't protect them or act by them really.

    Also, since in my canon, Hardestadt made body-doubles of himself (and one of them would be Jurgen), allowing him to be in multiple places at the same time, die but not really and "Rule from the Grave", I think Gotzon would kind of sniff some of it. He probably wouldn't meddle with his Clan's politics and is very likely he would hate every damn Sabbat there is. So maybe an Autarkis with some Camarilla and Lasombra "antitribu" (pre-V5 concept at least) links, but mostly alone.

    I see him getting, one time or another, into the whole Kupala mess, especially if he came to the conclusion that the demon is the source of the Sabbat's power. Or maybe he would be more into the Giovanni's Chronicles axis, hunting down those that would even try to attain godhood.

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  • Baaldam
    replied
    The name sounded vaguely familiar but must admit i remembered nothing, so i got this snooping a bit into the WW wiki.

    He also has a childe, possibly inspired by a historic figure, that would become a prince and had something of a rivalry with Jurgen it seems.

    Honestly, for me seems like a bit of a plot device/"paint by tropes" kind of character, but that also makes him a very convenient tabula rasa for a ST to flesh out according to one's own taste/preferences with no one the wiser.


    One important detail - if Jurgen managed to delve into his memories through dominate, that would mean Gotzon is not 5th gen, but 6th gen at most and somehow empowered by either the Lasombra antediluvian or the council of clan elders to actually be able to pull off the Cry that Slays Light.

    - Or Jurgen thinks he delved into Gotzon's memories but it was the opposite, the elder actually dominating Jurgen and creating this whole scenario for obscure reasons his own.

    - Or Gotzon is an unwitting dupe, implanted with a version of the memories the actual, true performer, whoever he or she is.


    Either way i would strongly advise giving Dark Ages Clan Novel: Ventrue and Darknening Sky a very long and attentive read - among other things because i suspect there might be some serious continuity issues involved, since that "talk" would have to occur years or decades after 1230, while a number of the livonian crusades (though not all) happened before that.

    (Though it's Dark Ages we are talking about, the line where continuity incongruity and retcons are so endemic that years ago i threw the towel and ruled out that it is not the past of the World of Darkness, but a weird astral-spirit realm/parallel reality formed from the collective memories, delusions & dementia of a number of vampires within the Cobweb/Madness Network....)

    There is room for things to fit i think so far, but the fact that having never read either book i could come across potential issues just from character summaries is kind of worrisome. Anyway caveat emptor and have a good read.


    As an aside, Gotzon is a name of basque origin. How useful would that be in informing us his personal history or character, i'd say it's up to each ST to define in one's game.
    Last edited by Baaldam; 05-10-2022, 08:50 AM.

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  • trueann
    replied
    It seems that is all info we have so far - https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Gotzon

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  • Herr Meister
    replied
    It seems nobody knows where he is or perhaps even who he is...schade...

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