Blood Potency is one of the few things I really liked in V5. Has anybody adapted it to v20 with any success? If so, would care to share how did you do it?
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Kinda. Blood Potency is one of the elements V5 took from the sister game requiem. Requiem first edition had a translation guide for Masqurade revised edition, does mean it can work for v20.
The translation guide basically says use generation from the base game and rename it to potency. Potency does the same thing in vtm generation does with the following changes:
• All vampires start with a potency of 0. Giving them a 13th generation, aka a BP of 1.
• Potency goes up every 50 years for free as long as you're active, but goes down every 25 if you're in torpor.
It does was Requiem does with Blood Potency, not v5.
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Originally posted by Vilenecromancer View Post
I get it came from Requiem (although I never played nor ST it, I gave it a read), but the thing I liked is the fact that they kept generation as removing it sounds strange. What I wanted is to add blood potency to an ongoing chronicle where generation is already a thing (as usual in the WoD). So I wanted to know a way of doing so without creating drastic problems to the chronicle.Comment
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It makes sense for Requiem to use Blood Potency, as all vampires start the same place. For Masquerade, Generation makes sense because a lot of vampires start out with privilege. For Requiem, it's about age, but for Masquerade it's about age AND who your daddy was. Adding them together is not a good idea, and I think V5 suffered by adding both. It dilutes the themes of both in a lot of ways. Blood Potency says you can become more powerful with time, the hard work argument, but Generation says you can become more powerful if you take some risks or if your parents were already powerful, the privileged argument.Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
Oh...I wouldn't do that. Adding homebrew to an on-going chronicle is usually a bad idea, even if everyone agrees. It can create weird plot holes, confusing elements, or just break the game the moment it is introduced. In this case, Blood Potency and Generation do the exact same thing so regardless of how we do this one of them will be invalid in some way. That said, because I'm not the writers of Sabbat, here's how you can do it easily.Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
Take the chart on page 214 of V5 and take the Blood Potency chart from either Requiem edition. The reason I'm not suggesting V5's chart is because BP from V5 relies on a hunger system that is not already present, and jury-rigging it to a on-going V20 game will cause issues. You now have the minimum and maximum Blood Potency for each Generation, and a chart that tells you what each score means.
Have your players put all the information from their old sheet to the sheet below, which has hunger and blood potency, and you should be good to go!
Elder Sheet
Neonate SheetComment
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V5 has a table that shows you minimum and maximum Blood Potency ratings for each Generation. I'd use that as a start. I'd say the lower Generations probably aren't powerful enough, and 14th Generation vamps could maybe do with a bit of wiggle room. There's also the fact BP 0 in V5 and VTR2e mean different things, so Thin Bloods need bumping up a level too. So you could adjust it like so:
Ghouls, revenants and dhampirs: Blood Potency 0*
15th to 16th: Blood Potency 1**
14th: Blood Potency 1-2***
13th to 12th: Blood Potency 1-3
11th to 10th: Blood Potency 1-4
9th: Blood Potency 2-5
8th: Blood Potency 2-6
7th: Blood Potency 3-7
6th: Blood Potency 4-8
5th: Blood Potency 5-9
4th: Blood Potency 6-10
*Disciplines capped at 1 dot (or use optional V20 caps based on age, or say their cap is equal to half their domitor's Blood Potency, rounded up)
**Disciplines capped at 3
***Disciplines capped at 4 (until BP 2?)
Then I'd use Requiem 2e's Blood Potency table, since it uses Vitae (blood points) rather than Hunger and so requires less conversion. With a bit of tweaking for ghouls and such, it goes like this:
Effects of Blood Potency
Blood Potency/Max Vitae/Vitae Per Turn/Can Feed From
BP 0/10+(Stamina)/1 per turn/N/A
BP 1/10/1 per turn/Animals
BP 2/11/2 per turn/Animals
BP 3/12/3 per turn/Humans
BP 4/13/4 per turn/Humans
BP 5/15/5 per turn/Humans
BP 6/20/6 per turn/Kindred
BP 7/25/7 per turn/Kindred
BP 8/30/8 per turn/Kindred
BP 9/50/10 per turn/Kindred
BP 10/75/15 per turn/Kindred
Standard trait maximum is equal to BP or 5, whichever is higher. You can just use V20 healing costs to keep it simple.
There are no 'slake half' pitstops along the way, but it would be easy enough to add those in (say, every third level, so at BP 2, BP 5, and BP 8-10).
The higher levels of Blood Potency are not quite as powerful as the highest Generations used to be, so you might want to up BP 7-10 to match the stats from the Sixth through Third Generations.
And that's it, I think.Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 05-21-2022, 06:33 AM.Comment
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Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
Thank you very much, I think I could adapt from there without having any serious problem. It's a nice reference from a place to start.Comment
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No problem. Let us know how it works out in play.Originally posted by Herr Meister View PostComment
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One thing to consider is that VtM always had a couple observations on vampires, like changes in mindset and feeding restrictions that never got translated into proper rules and derive from Age. They're in Requiem and now formally in V5.
I think it would be a good idea to link Blood Potency to somewhat distinct benefits and drawbacks from Generation, maybe even take some of the benefits of Generation and putting them into BP. You could also make extra rules for Diablerie based on the BP of the target, so it is an extra reason/source of effects to Diablerie.
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For diablerie, I would suggest that you keep it simple. If your victim has a lower Generation, your own drops by one, and if your BP is lower than the minimum for your Generation, it increases to that minimum.
If you want a bit more of a reward for Diablerie, then try this: if your victim has a higher BP, yours increases by one or (their BP-4), whichever is higher. You could close that gap with additional successes on the diablerie roll, if you like it gonzo.
Either way, you would always rise to at least the minimum BP and cannot rise above the maximum BP for your new Generation. Maybe add a dot in their highest Discipline if your rating is lower than theirs, or add a dot in one of their highest Abilities if not.
For siring, I'd say you start one Generation higher than your sire in all cases, and your starting BP is the lowest for your Generation. That's the most balanced. But again, if you want more power, you can start PCs off at a BP of 1 or (your sire's BP-4), with a minimum and maximum as per your Generational limits.
Things like greater blood surge or mend rates are factored into the ability to spend more blood per turn, so aren't needed. I would also argue the Discipline dice bonus isn't needed either, as dice pools are bigger in V20. Feeding restrictions are also factored into the VTR2e table, so they're in the adapted table above.
If you wanted feeding restrictions to be less definite and more of a risk, you could make it a Humanity roll at each new BP level. Roll (Humanity - BP) with failure dropping you down one step from bagged to animal, animal to human, and human to Kindred. This is closer to the old, pre-V20 rules for gaining feeding restrictions (which were a bit more complicated; see Wind from the East and the Elysium supplement, IIRC).
Though, I have only just realised that VTR2e doesn't have a feeding restriction step for bagged blood. So you could change that to the following:
Effects of Blood Potency
Blood Potency/Max Vitae/Vitae Per Turn/Can Feed From
BP 0/10+(Stamina)/1 per turn/N/A
BP 1/10/1 per turn/Bagged
BP 2/11/2 per turn/Animals
BP 3/12/3 per turn/Animals
BP 4/13/4 per turn/Humans
BP 5/15/5 per turn/Humans
BP 6/20/6 per turn/Kindred
BP 7/25/7 per turn/Kindred
BP 8/30/8 per turn/Kindred
BP 9/50/10 per turn/Kindred
BP 10/75/15 per turn/Kindred
You could consider that last level being 'Elders'
rather than Kindred, to factor in that the eldest need even more potent blood to survive (see the optional rules for the Withering in Gehenna for more inspiration). If you want less uniformly monstrous elders, you could tweak it further, but without the balances of V5's BP, this might be too OP.
Finally, Bane Severity isn't relevant in V20 and might be more hassle than it's worth to import (unless you just use V5's Banes). But at that point, you may as well use V5 over V20.
You could maybe tie sunlight damage to BP, though -- using the V5 Bane Severity ratings for each BP level to determine how much aggravated damage you take as standard, with a modifier based on how much of the body is exposed (so -2 damage, minimum 1, for a hand or foot exposed; -1 damage, minimum 1, for a limb; +0 damage, minimum 1, for the torso; +1 for the head; +2 for the whole body).Comment
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Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
I would discard using V5 out of hand on the simple premise that V5 doesn't even cover yet systematically what an elder is able to do, as most powers weren't converted and it would be like all of a sudden, all elders and Methuselah "forgot" their powers and erase them from their character sheet lol
But as I said, there are some really good ideas in V5 and Requiem (e.g. Blood Potency and different powers for disciplines below level 6) and I wanted to implement them without creating much trouble, i.e. things that doesn't make sense, like characters losing powers without any logical explanation, etc.Comment
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My take on it for V20 would be to have BP independent from Generation, hence tying it to age, or keeping just a limited tie.
I would use adambeyoncelowe's updated table, adding to it the Maximum Trait part just for ease of reference for the next part, but then I'd have all vampires start at BP1 and have Generation as a cap on the table. For example, you can't access the effects of BP 6 without being of 8th or better Generation (or 7th, if you go by the original V20 caps). A vampire that commits Diablerie and gain a reduction in Generation would be able to access hitherto unrealized potential if they had too high a BP for their Generation, while a younger one wouldn't get immediate effects on this regard.
On the Diablerie, my own rule would be that you get the Gen as normal, and +1 XP per BP of the target. That way Diablerie always have some benefit to it, which I always felt as something it should have, but it isn't too much. Giving an entire new dot at anything feels too much for me, unless it's under extreme circumstances (like eating a BP 7 Elder). If the BP of the target is higher than yours, then +1 BP wouldn't be unreasonable, maybe giving up on getting XP, maybe not.
From this, getting into anything from the target would just be a matter of using the Diablerie as the justification to spend your XP. Even the eventual side effects could come as the character buying new Flaws for their normal value and spending the points accordingly.
You probably heard it before, but I really think you'll be better switching rule systems eventually, even if keeping the setting. Requiem would probably satisfy you more rules-wise, but V5 isn't half-bad either.Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
It particularly overtly uses the Withering as justification for the changes, which isn't all that bad an explanation. If your problem is just things making sense, introducing an event that explains whatever change you make isn't hard. It is another thing if what you want is specifically to have the lore of your game as similar to the V20 canon as possible, so nothing "appears" to change.
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I particularly like the idea of someone who is embraced with powerful blood begin more powerful than another one who is embraced by someone of weaker blood from the start. It kind of relates to how the world is unfair, there's all this interesting side of "choosing someone worthy of your powerful blood" and the injustices of life itself, so to speak. Also this is the best excuse as to how the Tremere were able to succeed as a clan and even more than that, defeat an alliance between 3 other major clans making gargoyles out of them, among other things. I think it helps explain such things, like the abysmal difference in power between characters of similar age, besides just personalism (e.g. some people are just more capable/ efficient than others).I would use adambeyoncelowe's updated table, adding to it the Maximum Trait part just for ease of reference for the next part, but then I'd have all vampires start at BP1 and have Generation as a cap on the table.
That's certainly an interesting idea, in any case, I use the rules present in the Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra, I think it makes a lot of sense thematically and explains how things like Saulot dominating Tremere or Mithras dominating Monty after diablerie could happen and it's also a cool system, but giving exp is another good idea.On the Diablerie, my own rule would be that you get the Gen as normal, and +1 XP per BP of the target. That way Diablerie always have some benefit to it, which I always felt as something it should have, but it isn't too much. Giving an entire new dot at anything feels too much for me, unless it's under extreme circumstances (like eating a BP 7 Elder). If the BP of the target is higher than yours, then +1 BP wouldn't be unreasonable, maybe giving up on getting XP, maybe not.
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The normal Generation rule already does that, but I guess you want a compromise between the two. You can go ahead with the idea of a minimum BP for a given Gen (as per V5 and presented above), or you can make a high BP sire create a relative high BP childe. But my take is that Generation, as the potential of your blood, already covers that. You do have a better prospect just because of birth with this, after all, being open to reaches other cannot even dream. You can also just give more dots or XP to low-gen characters without putting it into rules.Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
As I said, though, that's just my take. I don't personally see much of a use to have both BP and Generation rules-wise otherwise. Requiem already opens up the option that a high BP sire may produce a higher-than-normal BP childe, and otherwise BP and Generation are the same thing under different names to reflect slightly different concepts, the difference being precisely that Generation is the innate power of your station, while BP is mainly the power of your age.
Just one correction: there was no alliance. The three clans fighting the Tremere didn't act in concert, they did it independently and in unequal intensities, without exchanging information or even granting passage through Domain. That made for a huge advantage on itself as they never had to face their enemies all at once and they would frequently get in the way of each other. In fact, even as clans only the Nosferatu even had the ability to coordinate internally frequently, Gangrel and Tzimisce would most of the time be unable and unwilling to even try. The Tzimisce could trade military information and help, but were constantly locked in infighting too, never committing entirely to an outside effort. The Gangrel is a hundred armies of one, coordination is not how the clan works.Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
Outside the correction I see no need for this kind of thing to explain the Tremere success. They had plenty other advantages they carried from their time as Mages. They still had the occult knowledge of the Order of Hermes and their own troves of Wonders, even Awakened allies of their own (they still had living Awakened among them for a long time and always kept in contact with at least one House in the OoH even during the heights of the Massassa Wars). They had a tight organization that was pretty much capable of coordination at levels unseen among vampires at such a scale until then. And they had the experience of centuries in an environment of cutthroat politics, despite Goratrix and Etrius being pretty lame at this, but Meerlinda was a genius and they pretty much amassed Ventrue support almost at the same rate they lost Awakened support, plus support from Princes in general.
I didn't read those yet, but my idea was a compromise between giving it a kick and making BP relevant for Diablerie, but not making it too complex, in response to adambeyoncelowe's points about the matter. I personally don't like to make them too complex either, and on top of that I don't like to formalize in rules the "personality clash/soul invasion" aspect, I prefer to let it be a wild card/unreliable legend that may very well be completely untrue, adding to the mystery and to the gamble nature of Diablerie.Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
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To be fair, I'm almost giving up adapting it to an ongoing chronicle, it seems it might just complicate things without bringing much benefit. The greatest benefit is not limiting characters so much by generation.I don't personally see much of a use to have both BP and Generation rules-wise otherwise.
Yes, I should have used quotation marks, in fact in the first books of the game it had been mentioned that there was a "some kind of alliance" between the Tzimisce/Gangrel/Nosferatu (and it in fact happened in some places), later they changed the phrasing, added more details to the story and started making the Tremere look more and more obsolete. That was a trend, in fact, from Transylvania Chronicles onwards(but that's besides the point, anyway lol). The thing is that these clans are very poorly organized, the Gangrel very insular, and the Tzimisces always seemed to hate each other more than they hate their enemies (while the Tremere are by far the most organized, besides having tools that the others lack). Vladimir Rustovich was certainly able to unite some of these conflicting sides under his banner, but the unofficial alliance wasn't really tight, so to speak. In any case the Tremere is one of the clans with the most impressive feats under its banner (specially when considering their jung age), fighting so many fronts while having so many enemies both among the undead and the living, basically exterminating a clan, cursing another and managing to become arguably the most powerful clan in the world (as mentioned in Revised) is certainly impressive, I would say Goratrix (and in any case Meerlinda must do something useful for the clan as Etrius and Goratrix had already done everything for the clan lol) was doing fine until Tremere woke up with hangover and decided Goratrix had "fulfilled a sign of Gehenna" with the excommunication of the Templar, etc, and summoned him back to Ceoris.The three clans fighting the Tremere didn't act in concert, they did it independently and in unequal intensities
Last edited by Herr Meister; 05-26-2022, 01:51 AM.Comment
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My solution to this problem (I use something like Blood Potency in my games that we call "Sanguinis" but it's the same idea; if we had designed it after Requiem came out we probably would have called it Blood Potency but it was 2000 and we were looking for a word) is to have there be two types of embrace:Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
* A "normal" embrace, which has a lower chance of success, and which produces a childe of, let's call it Blood Potency 1 (or 13th Generation). A weak little fledgling. This just requires spending a temporary willpower point.
* A "True Childe", which has a much higher chance of success and which produces a childe with a Blood Potency one less than the sire's (and some discipline dots to start). This, however, requires spending two permanent Willpower. It's a serious investment by the sire. (Ventrue get to only spend 1 as a Clan Advantage.)
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